Hosing Journeymen

[mattgslater]

Remember, Journeymen are hired out of handicap, so if you are the overdog, you can't take them.

Is that one of your rule changes?

Yes. I specified it at the top of the first post and was simply restating. My reason for doing this is that I do think that overdog teams should be willing to play while down men. Builds character. Builds players, too... unless it kills 'em.

Mercs who roll on a table would be cool, kinda like Necromunda Hired Scum.

Thanks, Joe!

Pay double price for any player you could take (minimum 100k) and roll on the Mercenary Table.

Mercenary Table (2d6)
2: Grimmy -- Wild Animal
3: Dummy -- Really Stupid
4: Granny -- -1 AV
5: Bummy -- -1 MA
6-8: Ready -- Normal
9-10: Steady -- Skill from any normal access category
11: Handy -- Doubles skill
12: Dandy -- Two skills from any normal access categories

But I agree with some of the above posters, do not mess with a team's ability to field 11 players. To be honest, it baffles me that professional sports teams worth over a million gold crowns would ever start a game with less than 16 players.

No. No. We are NOT going to engage in a serious discussion on the economics of Blood Bowl within any fantasy milieu, Warhammer or otherwise. That is a depth of geekiness which I refuse to plumb.

Even if those players were drawn from the youth team and so were wholly substandard. There have been plenty of instances of football teams suffering flu bugs etc and they always managed to field 16 warm bodies. I think teams should be able to fill their roster for free before each game with Reserves. Linemen with -1 on all stats, Loner and cannot earn or give away SPPs.

Another good idea. I think maybe a long-season or perpetual league could have a great system by making ever-increasing break points for spiraling expenses (or rewriting the winnings rules in some other way), and decreasing benchwarmers' effects on TV. I don't think you have to change anything else. Only the greenest teams, then, would ever have a hard time getting their numbers up.

[stormmaster1]

I think maybe a long-season or perpetual league could have a great system by making ever-increasing break points for spiraling expenses (or rewriting the winnings rules in some other way), and decreasing benchwarmers' effects on TV. I don't think you have to change anything else. Only the greenest teams, then, would ever have a hard time getting their numbers up.

We are about to try this in a perpetual league. The plans are being discussed as the most expensive 11 players count full towards TV.

then either half cost for 12-16, or half cost for 12-13/14 with the final 2/3 players being free. one of our human players has a lineman with block guard and +MA. he's basically a resrve blitzer and many feel that players like this shouldn't just be discarded because coaches are worried about giving inducements to an 11 man squad.

Thinking about it, it does seem harsh that big squads are penalised.

[Daefaroth]

Even if those players were drawn from the youth team and so were wholly substandard. There have been plenty of instances of football teams suffering flu bugs etc and they always managed to field 16 warm bodies. I think teams should be able to fill their roster for free before each game with Reserves. Linemen with -1 on all stats, Loner and cannot earn or give away SPPs.

I've actually had a few thoughts along these lines if I ever had a large enough league, a long enough league, and the interest in converting all the required rules.

In this scenario, all coaches would make two teams; one a standard team, and the other a 7s team. Standard journeymen rules are dropped in favor of the following. A team may fill any and all empty slots on the primary team (within positional allowances) with players from the 7s team. Those players will have the loner trait, along with any other negative traits that a 7s player normally has (shorter throws, -1 die rolls...), and additional penaties for being out of their league may be needed to balance this out (not sure what at this time).

After the game any 7s players who were brought up may decide that they are too good for the little leagues. Use whatever draft rules are already in place for the 7s league, otherwise a d6 compared to the number of star player rolls the player has made. If a player decides they are too good or are drafted, the primary team may sign him at full cost per standard rules (not 7s cost). If they are not signed they are lost forever...or perhaps auctioned off to any team that can field the race/position if the comish wants to make the effort.

This is just really beginning thoughts on the idea. It popped in my head because sometimes you just don't have time for a full league game, but you want to play some BB anyways. If you are playing a mixture of games, might as well find some way to integrate it into the league. No idea if this is practical, or if it will be better or worse than journeymen as written, I just thought it was an interesting idea.

[plasmoid]

Hi Matt,
respectfully - I think you're gunning for the wrong things.
Like Joe, I think a teams ability to field 11 players is sacred.
I've had 8 wood elfs challenged by a TV100 norse team (pre-inducements) and it just wasn't that enjoyable.

Also, who mess with mercs.
In my experience stars are taken a lot more than mercs.
Stars are way better value for money.
Doubling cost and adding a neg would make that incredibly more so.

If you want to go down this road, just remove stars - make a neg table for mercs (no cost change) and you'd be fine.
But it's not my league. Or my coaches
Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

Ah. I was hoping I wouldn't have to go into the full discussion of Options rules and inducements, but it looks like I don't have any way around that.

Philosophy: We want more blood, more fouls and more money to make up for it. We only play fixed seasons, so creating a challenging game at huge disparities is not an objective. We think 3rd edition needs too many fixes to salvage, but 5th edition just needs a few houserules on fouling, inducements and team design even if the blood needs to be put back in the bowl.

Calculating TV: Add Treasury to TV. Don't fear Spiraling Expenses: they incur, but teams get more money to account for the extra blood in these rules, and this way teams that avoid injuries eventually find themselves looking for creative ways to jettison cash, while struggling ones will get out of their immediate money problems with just a couple not-awful games. With Treasury in TV, now you can allow teams to spend money on inducements without playing around with relative TV!

Handicap: There are two kinds of handicap: underdog funds and emergency funds. In most cases either can be used, but you can't spend both kinds of funds on the same purchase. Underdog funds are the difference in TVs, just like in LRB5. [/i]Emergency[/i] funds are Treasury money. The first 50,000 GC spent on emergency funds is matched gold-for-gold by the League; but if more than 50,000 is spent, only 50,000 is matched.

Star Players: You can hire an on-roster Star as your Option, replacing your Big Guy, Secret Weapon or a couple positionals, and you can induce one as well. Stars have their price reduced significantly (dramatically at the high end, but still more than half), but induced stars are double that price, so they're more expensive than in LRB5.

Inducements:

Mercenaries: Unless I go with the table above, the only thing that changes on Mercenaries is the price. They're double TV add, minimum 100k, and you can give them one skill for +40k (that is, double TV add). You can take an Option player or Coaching Staff as a Mercenary if you would be allowed to hire the player/staffer given your current roster.

Star Player: You may induce one Star Player with underdog funds only, at double the (reduced) listed price.

Journeymen: As noted above, you must induce Journeymen with underdog funds only, and you must roll on the table.

Freebooter: You may hire one player with emergency funds (only) for this match only at normal roster price. This may be any player who could be hired as a Mercenary.

Cards: I've got my own decks, which replace the mechanics for Bribes and Wizards. You get one card for free, and additional cards are 100k. They will vary in value a little less than the ones in 3rd ed, but there will be some of that stuff going around for suspense. Because these houserules are fairly bloody, there will be money cards. Special coaching staff (Wizard, Alchemist, Manager, Mascot) allow for special decks, which allows people to buy an investment in cash or healing with the right staff members. You can induce these cards too (1 each for special decks), but each requires a 50k coaching staffer (who can be induced as a Merc for 100k). Bribes are a card deck now and are a little less reliable at the same price, but it's a little harder to get ejected fouling.

No babes, no wandering APO (well, you can take one if you don't have one on roster), and a bloodier game overall. There is more money, though, so it's easier to replace fatalities.

[PubBowler]

Also, who mess with mercs.
In my experience stars are taken a lot more than mercs.
Stars are way better value for money.

Not wanting to thread jack but I think this highly variable on the team.

Merc linos on Dwarf & Norse teams (for example) are really good value for money.
150k for a Guarding blocker or 130k for a Block Tackle lino.

It's a mixture, especially as some teams don't have access to low priced useful stars.

[mattgslater]

To riff off PB and consolidate a too-long post above, my goal is to make low-priced Mercs and Stars much less affordable without playing around with the high-priced stuff too much. With these rules, induced Stars will generally find their costs going up by 40k-80k, and Mercs will go up by 0 to 50k (well, actually, a Halfling with a skill is 10k cheaper, and a Snotling with a skill is 20k cheaper (10k cheaper without), but everything else is the same price or more). That'll make a big fat difference at the low end, but at the high end it doesn't really matter much. Also, most teams may have only one Star Player, though a struggling team, or an average one which faces a hugely successful opponent around week 5 or 6, might be able to pull off a second Star with a Mercenary Option.

[Jural]

Also, who mess with mercs.
In my experience stars are taken a lot more than mercs.
Stars are way better value for money.

Not wanting to thread jack but I think this highly variable on the team.

Merc linos on Dwarf & Norse teams (for example) are really good value for money.
150k for a Guarding blocker or 130k for a Block Tackle lino.

It's a mixture, especially as some teams don't have access to low priced useful stars.

Hell, what about 100k block tackle lineman! WHo cares about Loner if you have block and tackle?

It's the one thing I dislike most about the inducement system, the teams with the best linemen and starting skills make out like bandits when inducing as well, and the teams which start out light in those departments end up with overcosted, burdensome mercs.

But I think it's really limited to two teams, three if you include the Chaos Dwarves.

[stashman]

A Dwarf Blocker Journeyman with Block, Thick Skull and AV9 to use on LOS is very good!

[Warpstone]

The ability to atleast start with 11 players is probably one of the biggest leaps forward that LRB5 made. Playing with a 9 or 10 man roster is basically a gong-show as neither side gets a shot at a normal opening move.

I think reducing the effectiveness of journeyman even further is certainly fine (i.e. "Not A Team Player": journeymen cannot provide blocking assists, or "Cowardice": player will not block or assist against any opponent stronger than him.), but atleast guarantee that a coach can always start with 11 men or get rid of journeymen altogether.

[mattgslater]

OK. But do you like the most recent one?

2-3: Shrimpy. -1 ST.
4: Blimpy. -1 AG.
5: Wimpy. -1 AV.
6: Limpy. -1 MA.
7: Happy: No penalty.
8: Lumpy. Niggling Injury.
9: Gimpy. Bonehead.
10: Primpy. Egomaniac.*
11: Grumpy. Wild Animal.
12: Scrappy: Starts with an MVP.

Or I could drop Scrappy and make Grumpy 11-12.

[Marlow]

I like the idea of rolling to see what Injury your Journeyman has so they are weaker than normal linesmen, however with a 1/6 chance of them not showing I would not spend my money that way.

I would buy Stars, Healers, Babes or anything else I could reley on getting to help keep my existing players on the field.
(Edit: I just read your post about removing Babes & Healers)

I can see the fun in making a Bloodier Blood Bowl. Having Mighty Blow, Dirty Player, etc all being +2 and/or saying you have to equal (not exceed) AV would acheive that aim.

I am not really sure what you are trying to acheive with restructuring Inducements? I do like the idea of allowing one on rosta Star.

[mattgslater]

My goal is to keep all efforts to generate equivalency out, and instead to have underdog handicap feel more like a bone being thrown to the team that's gonna get screwed. I run a fixed league, and fixed leagues decrease the differences in TV, so inducements for balance aren't so important as they are in open/perpetual leagues. I'm trying to find a happy medium between 3e cards/mvps and LRB5 inducements/journeymen.

[Warpstone]

OK. But do you like the most recent one?

2-3: Shrimpy. -1 ST.
4: Blimpy. -1 AG.
5: Wimpy. -1 AV.
6: Limpy. -1 MA.
7: Happy: No penalty.
8: Lumpy. Niggling Injury.
9: Gimpy. Bonehead.
10: Primpy. Egomaniac.*
11: Grumpy. Wild Animal.
12: Scrappy: Starts with an MVP.

Or I could drop Scrappy and make Grumpy 11-12.

I'd recommend rolling out something just a little milder for the first season:

2: -1 ST
3: -1 AG
4: -1 MA
5,6: -1 AV
7: Normal
8,9: Niggled
10: Bonehead
11: Really Stupid
12: Egomaniac (this player is so distracting to his teammates that he subtracts 1 Team Reroll while he is on the pitch).

The key is that 5-6 & 8-9 are not terrible options. You get a fully functional player that has trouble taking a hit. Your opponent is happy that he gets a couple of easy targets and you get somebody to atleast help start a drive with. Number 12 can be whatever option you want that is so bad that a coach would only field him because he has too.

You can then scale up or scale down the probabilities and penalties for season 2 after getting feedback from your non-bashy coaches.

[mattgslater]

How's this?
2: Shrimpy. -1 ST.
3: Blimpy. -1 AG.
4-5: Wimpy. -1 AV.
6: Limpy. -1 MA.
7: Happy: No penalty.
8: Gimpy. Bonehead.
9-10: Lumpy. Niggling Injury.
11: Grumpy. Wild Animal.
12: Dopey. Really Stupid.

So the perms go: 1, 2, 7, 5, 6, 5, 7, 2, 1.