Claw: Why is it a weak sister to Mighty Blow??

[Alamar]

So what are the reasons why Claw is a weak sister?

-- Are leagues mostly Orcs & Dwarves? [Mine never have been]

-- Are the combos of Claw + MB + PO too powerful already [could be]

-- Was Claw ever playtested with either a +2 to Armor Break or a flat roll of 7+ as a break? [unlikely]

-- Is it only supposed to be a situational skill [seems likely seeing some teams are "situational" by design]


Review:
vs. AV7 opponnents MB is 40% more effective than Claw to break armor

vs. AV8 opponnents MB & Claw are tied ... MB is still a clearly more effective skill when you look at the non-AV break benefits in this case.

vs AV9 opponnents Claw is 50% more effective at breaking armor. If you need to remove someone from the pitch Claw is only 17% more effective in this case ...

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With a Chaos Team I can certainly see taking 1-2 guys with Claw before MB as situational guys. I don't see the point of even considering Claw before Mighty Blow otherwise ...

[SierraKiloBravo]

Because the rule was changed to be a nutcracker skill used against high TV targets. In LRB 4.0 it was overkill.

So, if you want to be better at hurting all things, take MB.

If you want to be better at hurting hardened targets, take Claw.

If you're lucky enough to get both on the same player, then every target has the effective AV of a halfling, in which case the Claw / MB player should be marked for death the same way that wardancers or OTS's are marked.

[frogbear]

It is always useful against those dwarves and Orcs.

Yes, we have quite a few 'cans' in our tournaments that need opening...

[Tripleskull]

So what are the reasons why Claw is a weak sister?

-- Are the combos of Claw + MB + PO too powerful already [could be]

-- Was Claw ever playtested with either a +2 to Armor Break or a flat roll of 7+ as a break? [unlikely]

Claw, mighty blow piling on is an extremely powerfull combination.

Claw was 2+ on AV rolls before chaos got mutations on regular skill rolls and most or all mutations got a nerf. So it has bin tested for many years. For many of those years piling on was + ST to AV rolls though, making claw less usefull. I like the new claw, and in my oppinion, claw is more likely to strong than to week.

[mattgslater]

Claw combines with Mighty Blow. Anything that combines with Mighty Blow should come with a visible drawback. PO leaves one prone, and Claw is exclusive and in most contexts a little weaker.

[Alamar]

Claw was 2+ on AV rolls before chaos got mutations on regular skill rolls and most or all mutations got a nerf. So it has bin tested for many years. For many of those years piling on was + ST to AV rolls though, making claw less usefull. I like the new claw, and in my oppinion, claw is more likely to strong than to week.

I guess that's my bad memory showing. I thought in the old days that Claw was +3 to Break ...

As far as Claw being weak or strong I certainly think that [overall] it is a much weaker skill than Mighty Blow in leagues with a good mixture of teams.

The bad thing is that I'm not sure you can do anything to the skills because if you weaken either of them they won't be worth taking. If you make either stronger [esp. without nerfing the other] then you make the combo too powerful. If you do something to limit the combo then you have to deal with exceptions to general rules .... oh well.

[Duke Jan]

Claw is weaker when looked at from a purely statistical point. However, the psychological impact is huge. Especially when playing opponents who remember 3rd ed

[DoubleSkulls]

Especially playing anyone with their precious "you can't hurt me with my Av9" players.

[Alamar]

Claw is weaker when looked at from a purely statistical point. However, the psychological impact is huge. Especially when playing opponents who remember 3rd ed

True ...

[mattgslater]

Look who can have Claw, and what its role is on their team, and you'll see that the fact that it's similar to but weaker than MB is a good thing.

Snow Troll: Starts with Claw, can get MB on a normal roll, an option open to only a few big guys. Short-term pain for long-term gain. Also, a player on the "low-AV variety" bashy team starting with Claw has a certain ironic je-ne-sais-quoi.

Werewolf: Starts with Claw, needs doubles for MB. Here, Claw is a fluff thing, and a cost-control mechanism. Mechanically, Necro teams almost seem as if Nuffle had pulled a little mojo out of the Mummies on an Undead team and gave it to the Ghouls. They're a little faster and tougher, but they're only sorta hard-hitting, and 2x Claw on GA-access is part of that fluff.

Chaos Minotaur, Warpstone Troll, Beast of Nurgle: Starts with MB, can get Claw on a normal roll. This is just a boost, frankly. This access is what makes Nurgle good and Chaos playable.

Chaos Warrior, Nurgle Warrior, Marauder, Beastman, Pestigor: Can get Claw or MB as a normal roll. So MB-Claw is a direct progression in the same manner as Accurate-Strong Arm used to be on a Thrower (and SH-Pass-Accurate-SA could still be on a Marauder).

Rat Ogre, CD Minotaur, Chaos Ogre, Chaos Troll: Needs doubles to stack 'em up. That's only going to happen on a second double or if the BG already has Juggernaut, and even then a lot of coaches will go for Block anyway (not to mention the other good second double skills for these guys, like Tentacles and Dodge).

Stormvermin, Chaos Dwarf: Gets MB on normal, can get Claw on doubles. CDs have up to 6 of these guys, so burning a double on Claw is sometimes done, especially in a long or perpetual season where you know he'll skill again, or if the guy already has MB (probably a late-improver, so not a short-season sort of thing in itself), or if the major competition is AV9. Stormvermin might do that too as a late improvement on a utility piece, but as a 0-2 slot with other purchases... anyone taking Claw first on a SV is probably doing it 'cause he likes his mutant model, or he's really concerned about Orcs or Dwarfs or something.

Rotter: Too many other positions who could make very good use of it, and not enough ball and blocking skills, to consider it on a normal roll. Late-skill option, true, but AV8/Decay players seldom have to consider that.

Most Skaven: Too much to compete with Claw to consider.

See? In most cases it works easily, and wouldn't if it were a bit better. Some players who have/could take it would be ok if it were better (Werewolf, any Skaven), but others would be really sick (Snow Troll).

[DoubleSkulls]

Chaos Minotaur, Warpstone Troll, Beast of Nurgle: Starts with MB, can get Claw on a normal roll. This is just a boost, frankly. This access is what makes Nurgle good and Chaos playable.

FAIL BoN's need doubles for mutations.

[mattgslater]

Oops. Though "FAIL" may be a bit too harsh. Inaccuracy aside, my overall point works nicely.

What I meant by "this" in "this is what makes Nurgle good" was the broad M access. My bad on the particulars: I don't have any regular Nurgle coaches down here, so I've only played with/against rookie/young Nurgle teams.