Is this a nerf or a buff?

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
Kort first:

70k is a bit too expensive for a Longbeard without Tackle, since he's basically a Zombie that loses Regeneration against +AV and Thick Skull, and access to Strength skills

And Block. You forgot block. That makes it a fair price IMO.

Mattgslater said:

I think you should consider cutting 10k off Runners, to separate the price bump from the cut in skills

Have you thought about possibly making Blitzers a 0-4 position?

I still think an Ironbreaker position (3/3/1/10 Bk/SF GS 80k) would be a fun way to solve the problem.

Matt, I want something simple.
But most importantly, I don't want to take away and then give something back.
I want to take something way. Nerf. Not just 'mess with'.

Rhyoth said:

On the other hand, 70 k Blockers without Tackle seems really unfair (compared to Chaos Dwarves),

Good point. Chaos Dwarfs would be getting a good deal.
It would be weird, but not unprecedented.
Human throwers get MA+ for free compared to an orc thrower.
So it's not ideal, but I could live with it

Cheers
Martin

[Kort]

Hi all,
Kort first:

70k is a bit too expensive for a Longbeard without Tackle, since he's basically a Zombie that loses Regeneration against +AV and Thick Skull, and access to Strength skills

And Block. You forgot block. That makes it a fair price IMO.

Oups I did not write it but I did not forget it. The price difference between a Zombie and a Blocker is 30k, that is the commonly accepted cost of Block on rookie players. I just happen to think that AV9 and Thick Skull do not really compensate for the loss of Regeneration. I could be mistaken though, and 70k for a Tackle-less Longbeard is definitely not a scandal.

I would be quite happy if the Tackle-Block combination that dishearteningly wrecks Stunties and ST2 Catchers was not so prevalent. I am still slightly worried about Amazons getting an indirect boost at low TV, and Elf getting one at high TV.

Human throwers get MA+ for free compared to an orc thrower.
So it's not ideal, but I could live with it

Off topic, but I would be all for 60k Orc Throwers... and 90k Orc Blitzers

[spubbbba]

I also like the idea of giving dwarfs the option of 6 AG3 players just to open up some opportunities for more varied playstyle that cage and grind.

If you nerf the longbeards then how about allowing 0-4 runners? Runners are overcosted but it would at least give the dwarfs more of a chance at a 2 turn score and open up some more varied skill selections and tactics to them.

It might help to make them a little less dull and hated too.

I'd also be happy with dropping the roller back to a star.

[mattgslater]

But most importantly, I don't want to take away and then give something back.
I want to take something way. Nerf. Not just 'mess with'.

Proper nerfing is usually a pretty tricky balancing act. Generally, if something seems simple, it's a good sign that there's a lot you're overlooking.

[Smurf]

Underating tackle IMO.

The blockers can be used to screw any dodgers. The positions may grab the glory but it's the hardcore line aka blockers that make the team.

[Spasmbot]

I just happen to think that AV9 and Thick Skull do not really compensate for the loss of Regeneration. I could be mistaken though

An AV9 player is about half as likely to suffer a casualty compared to an AV8 player, MB evens it out a bit in favor of regen, edging it to 5:3 as opposed to 2:1. I'm not sure what thick skull is worth though, I guess you could say that a thick skull player will only be knocked out half as much as a non thick skull player. There's also the fact that very few teams are going to be smacking around dwarf linemen much.

[plasmoid]

Mattgslater said:

Proper nerfing is usually a pretty tricky balancing act. Generally, if something seems simple, it's a good sign that there's a lot you're overlooking.

Perhaps?
But I have absolutely no reason to believe that doing something more convoluted will somehow be yielding a more predictable result. So I'll stick with simple, thanks.

As far as the vote goes, I should consider this a minor nerf. That's good enough for me.

And I think Kort has it right. If they need more than 2 tackle players, then they can take it like everyone else. Block sure means they generate their own SPPs. So if a few of them don't go with guard as their first skill, then I'm alll for it.

Cheers
Martin

[Aliboon]

Proper nerfing is usually a pretty tricky balancing act. Generally, if something seems simple, it's a good sign that there's a lot you're overlooking.

Again, possibly, but I fundamentally disagree with the ultimate conclusion which you seem to be implying in that you should be making nerfs more complicated to try to keep balance? K.I.S.S. and trying to avoid the Law of Unexpected Consequences should always apply imo. Make changes as simple as possible, playtest them and then see if they worked. If you make multiple changes at once then a) you can't tell which one worked and b) you are likely to have more "collateral damage" without really knowing from what change they came from.

Matt, from reading (or at least trying to read, I'm afraid I do tend to glaze over, although that is getting a bit better as i think you're now using less AmF terminology) your posts you do seem to like to make things more complicated than I would, different strokes for different folks I suppose.

[mattgslater]

I guess what I'm saying is that little changes make a big impact, and often not the one you'd expect. Whenever you're balancing anything, you have to stay flexible, and sometimes it's best to use trade-offs to negotiate in less than full units.

[Aliboon]

Completely agree with the 1st sentence, basically what i'd call the Law of Unexpected Consequences, but you lost me on the 2nd sentence...

[Patchwork]

but you lost me on the 2nd sentence...

Basicaly he's saying "big nerf and small buff = small nerf".

For a house rule that doesn't have to be done in one go though, you can see just how big the first nerf is before doing anything else that might not be needed.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, that. Sorta. And it's not quite direct, as houserules can play into one another, and also as "balance" is a multifaceted thing.