Would the old Stand Firm free dodge be too powerful?

[spubbbba]

I was thinking that it was a bit of a shame that Stand Firm is a shadow of it’s former self. I wondered if you could give it the Foul Appearance treatment and split it into 2 skills.

Call it something like “Escape” and use the rules of the lrb4 version where it was a free dodge attempt. If it went back to the 3rd edition version where you automatically moved 1 square and could keep moving if you passed then that would be too good really.

So, if that was available would anyone take it? I could see it being useful for AG3 slightly squishy players like norse, humans, skaven and zons.

[koadah]

Isn't break tackle bad enough?

[Glowworm]

Stand firms pretty good as is.....especially on Frenzy pieces that cannot normal get Side step.

Free dodge attempt? most players with easy access to SF are not the type that should be good at dodging.....

I think its about right as is.

[spubbbba]

Stand firms pretty good as is.....especially on Frenzy pieces that cannot normal get Side step.

Free dodge attempt? most players with easy access to SF are not the type that should be good at dodging.....

I think its about right as is.

But if the free dodge was a skill in it’s own right would that be a worthwhile pick?

[Glowworm]

Stand firms pretty good as is.....especially on Frenzy pieces that cannot normal get Side step.

Free dodge attempt? most players with easy access to SF are not the type that should be good at dodging.....

I think its about right as is.

But if the free dodge was a skill in it’s own right would that be a worthwhile pick?

It would probably become a 1st pick, no turnover if you fail (IIRc) so an obvious first action especially with a guard player.

[Hitonagashi]

I don't think people would take it.

It would be great for big guys as a late skill(I can see it going guard/sf/bt/escape).

The thing is, if you have G access, there are better skills for ST based players (namely, killing skills), and better skills on doubles for AG based (guard).

[garion]

Simple solution - make LRB4 Stand Firm, but give it the Jump Up treatment... a St roll +2 to work.

Then make it a trait and bring back Traits. The removal of traits is the worst change since lrb4 imo.

[mattgslater]

I'm opposite you there, Garion. I hated Traits.

[bruce888]

i agree, the removal of traits was a great thing. some players became restricted with their access to a trait, and teams grew with a similar pattern. Has anyone tried a system of buying skills with points rather than the current system, i.e. your Human Blitzer starts as normal, then upgrades to-6-15 SPP's. The player still rolls to see what he has access to G, S or a Double and then selects from the seected choice. Block-6 Spp's, Wrestle-3 SPP's, Tackle-3 Spp' Mighty Blow-4 SPP's, Juggernaut-3 SPPS, Stand Firm-3 SPP's etc, etc. by making Wrestle cheaper than Block it could make coaches think more as they spend their SPP's at variant levels. We have tried this in our league but over a very short season with only 4 teams, it did work, but we didn't have a solid cost of skillsper say, the costs were rather thrown together in a thats a Great Skill, 5 SPP's. Thats a Good Skill, 4 SPP's, and that's a Mediocre Skill, 3 SPP's, any thoughts please.

[Hitonagashi]

Hehehe, in the Plasmoid Mega Thread, I almost proposed restoring LRB 4 SF as a 'solution' to rebalance Bash and Ball.

It would certainly be very powerful, but I don't think it would be too powerful. You are comparing it against MB and Guard, and, what bash teams would gain from a single risk free dodge, they'd lose from, well, losing MB/G.

[macabeo]

Hehehe, in the Plasmoid Mega Thread, I almost proposed restoring LRB 4 SF as a 'solution' to rebalance Bash and Ball.

It would certainly be very powerful, but I don't think it would be too powerful. You are comparing it against MB and Guard, and, what bash teams would gain from a single risk free dodge, they'd lose from, well, losing MB/G.

This x10000. This is what prompted me to open this thread about Multiple Block's nerf. Sure, Multiple Block on a blitz may sound scary, but is it really better than Guard and MB? Nerf the killstack, open more options for S access players.

Regarding SF, I'd go with Garion's suggestion, but toning it down a bit so ST3 players don't succeed on a 2+ (strength must mean something, right?). Anyway I think SF is a rather underrated skill, even more so considering that Side Step is such a popular one. I was very surprised when I recently read a thread on Fumbbl about 3 longbeards that rolled doubles at the same time and a considerable amount of people were suggesting Side Step for the three of them, when SF is a normal roll and there are a lot of other useful options.

[Hitonagashi]

Sidestep is mostly better than Stand Firm (I was one of those saying to put 3x SS on the dwarves).

The difference comes between them on a blitz. Let's say that you are considering blitzing the SF or SS player. With SF, you know that he will not move, with Sidestep, he can move to where he is most damaging. The obvious example of this is elves anchoring the sides of cages with SS/DT blodgers - Block one, and don't pow, and they are stepping inside your cage and SS/DTing your ball carrier.

There are occasions where SF is better of course, but fundamentally, it's the difference between your choice of 8 squares, and your choice of one. There's almost always a place you can put a sidestepper where he isn't directly exposed to blocks, but if someone blitzes him to try and move him out of the way, he can sidestep into somewhere very annoying.

Regardless, getting OT!

I agree with Mac about nerfing the ST roll slightly. This is because there are a lot of players with AG 2/1 (all of which can *really* use Jump Up), but not many players with ST 2/1, and those players will not be taking Stand Firm . You could just make it a ST +1 roll, as the real problem would be ST 3 players doing it.

[the.tok]

Old stand firm was not that powerful.

The thing that made me sad when traits were removed is the flesh golems is a lot worse now. At least give this back to him, he deserves it