Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
I've been thinking hard, on the amazon and piling on issue, and I've weighed the feedback I got.
It's decision time for me as I want to lock down the 2012 version before the end of january. It will then be locked down for 2012, meaning it will be the rules for playtest tournament 2. If all goes well, this will be the final version of the NTBB rules, barring ugly surprises revealed in playtest.

I've decided to give that truly minor buff to amazon catchers: DCatch for free. It will make the catcher more interesting (less redundant) without improving their running game. With 2+ catches I think the thrower will also become more popular, and suddenly you're just accurate away from elfy quick-passing.

For Piling On I've finally settled on the LRB4 version, where PiOn is just a reroll to the armor roll.
I know it was rarely taken under LRB4, but it was taken, and I think it will be taken more in NTBB because fouling isn't as crazy as it was under LRB4.

As a single skill PiOn will be worse at causing KOs and CAS than Mighty Blow. But it will be better at inflicting stuns, so it has it's own appeal.
Naturally, the real kicker is still that it stacks with Mighty Blow.
In CRP your cas rate doubles when you go from nothing to mighty blow, then almost doubles again when you add in pion. I think that has proven to be a bit much.
My own previously suggested pion version (PiOn = MB) scales that back a bit. The 'just armor reroll' version scales that back some more.
But I think the stack will still have some appeal!

To help me get my thoughts straight on this issue, I produced these graphs.
The numbers may be a bit rough around the edges, but they'll do for comparative purposes.
The graphs give percentage chance to not penetrate (grey), stun (orange), KO (red) and cas (dark red).
And the graphs are: 1. No skill, 2. PO on armor only, 3. just mighty blow, 4. POMB in CRP, 5. POMB under my now abandoned rule, and 6. POMB when PO is armor only.

http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/Bashstats.JPG
(I can't post it directly, as it is more than 800 pixels wide...(?)

Cheers
Martin

[koadah]

LOL. Actually I have only just had a proper look at your halfling roster.

I might change my mind and agree with Ian now.

Maybe the number of people who start using the new better flings might actually be lower than the number of people who quit because they are too good.

I don't like AV7 on normal halflings. That just doesn't seem very fling like. As much as I hate AV6 it feels right.

6 AG4 stunties sounds pretty hairy too. I'd prefer only 4 but add 2

Stout Fellows
0-2 5 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff GA

You could even make the Stoutie ST3 though he'd start getting expensive I suppose.

[koadah]

So we agree.... in the format of the game were win% is the most significant people aren't going to take tier2/3 because you make the win% a bit better. So in formats where people value win% less the impact of a win% change will be even smaller

LOL. You're just having us on now.

[garion]

.... you've basically removed one of the primary purposes of tier 3 - which is to give experienced coaches a real challenge against less capable opponents.

I don't think there is any challenge, if you opponent isn't retarded you will not win if the dices are fair.

sorry but that is just not true.

CRP flings -
me with flings against LizViz's Lizardmen - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3154832 I won 1-0 fair dice, fair game.

me with flings against Purplechests (one of the best coaches about) Dwarves - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3155752 I won 2-1 Not so fair dice, but you have to play the odds in this encounter.

Me with flings against Afro's Dwarves - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3157367 I lost 1-0 would have been 1-1 and taken to overtime if I had passed a 4+ roll at the end of the game.

lrb4 flings -

My lrb4 fling team - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=603039 win draw loss ratio - 33/9/12
as you can see there is a wide variety of opponents and an amazing win ratio vs very good opponents I cant remember which game it was, but one of those wins is versus the formed fummbl no 1 ranked coach.

please feel free to watch replays. They are a challange and not impossible to win except against retards.

[plasmoid]

Heh, Koadah, as reasonably new change, I'm still open to a bit of debate on the flings.
I won't budge on AV7 flings. Heck, I originally wanted them to be AV8! . Would have been a nice 5238 to the gobbo 6237. But never mind. AV7 with +1 to injuries is weaker than an elf, and (to me) reasonable enough for a little fattie. Heck, the blubber will suck up some of the damage
Also, now that snots are AV6, it fits pretty well, IMO. I'm sure someone will cry 'AV-creep', but both of them will still go splat. A lot.

Now, I am wondering whether 0-6 halfling catchers is too much.
I know a lot of people would probably say so, because it would make the team better.
But I want the team to be better.

So, my real question is:
would 0-6 AG4 halflings push them above 45%?I'm inclined to err on the side of caution here, and go with 0-4.
But I'd really love some feedback - and as I'm locking down the rules on monday, I'd appriciate the feedback to be ASAP
Cheers
Martin

[spubbbba]

I am still astounded that people think Khemri were overpowered. In LRB4 they were mediocre at winning, I can see why they were changed as at low TV they were boring 1 dimensional team destroyers but they certainly didn’t dominate competitive play. The changes from 4 to 5 made them worse as mummies got 10K more expensive and lost G access whilst fouling took a massive nerf. Whilst in 6 they were just destroyed and made into a tier 1.5 or even 2 team.

Even giving Tomb Guardians BT would still make them nothing special as they have no ball handling ability and can’t even hold their own in the bashing stakes with the guardians being so hard to skill up and the squishy AV7 skellies.

I think if you give the blitz and thro-ras thick skull and take decay off the guardians for no proce change that would be a simple small buff. BT on the guardians is interesting but you’d probably need to playtest them a bit to see if they’d need a change to AV, decay and price to take that into account.

I also disagree that people don’t take Orcs because they are a strong team. There are many reasons Orcs are the most popular team in Bloodbowl; they come in the boxed set, they are funny and cool in the fluff and there is a good supply of models that are easy to make into a team.
But the key reason is that they are easy to use, good at all TV ranges and progress quitenaturally, I don’t think you can say the same for any other team in the game. Their low win rate is due to them being the team of choice for complete novices as they are the most used team to learn the game on.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
please check out the question above - I'd love to have your answer.

Also, don't bring up LRB4 flings. The Master Chef was just nuts

As for your other games, you're right, they can win. I think the stats we originally pulled for league play put them about 19% wins? So, around 1 win, 2 ties in 10 games. Some of those wins and ties no doubt against other stunties or weak oppnents. But sure, sometimes they do win - certainly if you play enough games (and are a good coach).

Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

For Piling On I've finally settled on the LRB4 version, where PiOn is just a reroll to the armor roll.
I know it was rarely taken under LRB4, but it was taken, and I think it will be taken more in NTBB because fouling isn't as crazy as it was under LRB4.

Your call, but I think this is a poor change compared to your own version of it. It will be taken, and used, less. I can foresee people going for Block/MB/Claw/Guard players fairly early on, whereas the popularity of PO previously slowed the development of guardwalls on Chaos teams. I suspect this will make Chaos better, not worse, against bash teams.

[plasmoid]

Hi Dode74,
I'm glad you liked it. I know you did. So did I
But I think I remember 5 people liking it, and 20 saying it was odd. They may well be wrong but I'm trying to find the happy medium with these rules. The stats for removing a player (KO+) with these 2 are close to identical, but where my suggestion produces a few more cas', the other one produces a few more stuns. I would have loved for my version to previal, but it's not a compromise I'm unhappy with.

Cheers
Martin

[Darkson]

.... you've basically removed one of the primary purposes of tier 3 - which is to give experienced coaches a real challenge against less capable opponents.

I don't think there is any challenge, if you opponent isn't retarded you will not win if the dices are fair.

Disagree completely.

[koadah]

Heh, Koadah, as reasonably new change, I'm still open to a bit of debate on the flings.
I won't budge on AV7 flings. Heck, I originally wanted them to be AV8! . Would have been a nice 5238 to the gobbo 6237. But never mind. AV7 with +1 to injuries is weaker than an elf, and (to me) reasonable enough for a little fattie. Heck, the blubber will suck up some of the damage
Also, now that snots are AV6, it fits pretty well, IMO. I'm sure someone will cry 'AV-creep', but both of them will still go splat. A lot.

Now, I am wondering whether 0-6 halfling catchers is too much.
I know a lot of people would probably say so, because it would make the team better.
But I want the team to be better.

So, my real question is:
would 0-6 AG4 halflings push them above 45%?I'm inclined to err on the side of caution here, and go with 0-4.
But I'd really love some feedback - and as I'm locking down the rules on monday, I'd appriciate the feedback to be ASAP
Cheers
Martin

OK, sorry. I'm a bit late coming into this.

If we're not gonna get Stout Fellows then 6 might be OK.
I like stouties because you often find that what you really need to be competitive in a game is a block + tackle and doubles don't come around often enough.

AG4, stunty, dodge means that you can walk right through a defence. Your TTMs & ball handling will be better and with so many av7s around it will be easier to protect them. If you are not going to give the catch then maybe you should call them dodgers.

[garion]

Hi Garion,
please check out the question above - I'd love to have your answer.

Also, don't bring up LRB4 flings. The Master Chef was just nuts

As for your other games, you're right, they can win. I think the stats we originally pulled for league play put them about 19% wins? So, around 1 win, 2 ties in 10 games. Some of those wins and ties no doubt against other stunties or weak oppnents. But sure, sometimes they do win - certainly if you play enough games (and are a good coach).

Cheers
Martin

LRB4 chef was awesome, perfectly fluffy. Personally I would like to see flings given an auto chef that takes all your opponents re-rolls away on a 2+ every game (except leader), but doesnt give them to the flings. If you need Re-roll against flings, shame on you


Sorry Im not sure what you mean.. Answer which question above?

[Tourach]

[
CRP flings -
me with flings against LizViz's Lizardmen - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3154832 I won 1-0 fair dice, fair game.

watched this, and no the dice was not fair at all (i guess if youre playing the halflings you might think so). Anyways i will give you the matchup is propably one of the best a rookie h-ling abusing tv can come up against, so in that regard I can see what you mean.

Plasmoid: I think the halfling team you presented is just fine. I will not play them though, i hate losing

[plasmoid]

The one in huge, bold, red letters

[dode74]

a rookie h-ling abusing tv

?