"New Idea" Playtest Set

[Acerak]

No kidding his inbox isn't big enough. Heck, good thing I have nearly unlimited space

John - I wanted to simplify the injury roll system. I don't think modifiers to a graduated 2D6 roll are good for the game. The Casualty Die is a league saver, but it's really a patch. It's a band-aid built to keep the game afloat in the presence of injury mods. If we didn't have injury mods, we'd have never needed it.

So let's look at Claw. I originally posted a very simple idea for Claw: +2 to AV. That's not very original, of course - that's the current rule. But it's my belief that each skill should offer something different.

Consider this: We have Dodge and Two Heads. Do we need another skill that allows you to re-roll a dodge? Or to add a plus to your dodge roll? No, I don't think we do. We have Big Hand and Sure Hands. Do we need more skills that affect picking up the ball? No, not if they won't add anything to the game that the current skills don't already add.

So examine the damage skills. What do most of them have in common? Right, they all seem to add plusses to AV. Some add plusses to injury, but I'd like to see that removed, at least locally.

Ok. So say you don't agree with removing the plusses to injury. That's fine. But the current rules don't allow you to combine plusses to AV. That's an exception, and not a very good one in my opinion.

So what, right? Well, right now you can't combine Claw and Piling On. Sounds like a big gaping hole to me. I mean, you can combine Piling On and Razor Sharp Claws...but you can't combine Piling On and Claw? Hmm.

Ok. So here are some options for you once you notice this:

1. Leave it alone. Sure, it's the only such combo that won't work, but any coach can see it, so he won't take it.

2. Let them combine. Sounds ideal, but strength teams would gain a huge upper hand. I don't think anyone disputes that.

3. Switch Claw so that it has the same effect, but uses a different mechanic.

4. Switch Claw so that it "does something else."

Well, if you have "something else," suggest it! But it's going to have an effect on how Chaos and Skaven teams play the game. I'm trying to keep the game effect the same via a new mechanic. Nothing wrong there. If anything, I'd rather laud myself for my imagination, especially if you're going to sit there with a cat in your ear instead of posting your own suggestion

Cheers!

-Chet

[neoliminal]

Example ideas:


Claw: +2 to AV rolls, negates Thick Skull.

Razor Sharps: +2 to AV rolls, -2 to Apoth rolls. ( I tested these with that cat! )

MB: +1 to AV rolls.

Piling On: AV Re-Roll (with no TRR for AV.)

[Pink Horror]

Yippee! I'm so glad to see JKL openly oppose some of Chet's suggestions. I believed since the BBRC the two had been acting like negotiators who try to always appear unified to their opponent and only argue in private.

Now this is intriguing. Usually I can go after both at the same time. In this instance I will have to choose a side for each issue.

First I'd like to thank Chet for introducing a new mechanic for Claw that would be easy to use. I don't know if its the right one, but a viable new option should always be appreciated. I'd take the change because it could help bring back stacking from its Q&A putdown, and affecting ball handling gives it some character.

Issue #1 Claw goes to Chet. Make it official.
Chet 1 - JKL 0

I don't want to see Mighty Blow get any worse, ever. So, I say make it +2 or make it a re-roll. I favor the re-roll, because other basic things like passing, catching, and picking up the ball have re-roll skills. Mighty Blow makes you hurt people better, so let it be an armour re-roll, unless you'd prefer a block re-roll...

Issue #2 Mighty Blow needs its injury modifier or a new option.
Chet 1 - JKL 0

I've been thinking about Piling On. We're ruling out the current version, and Chet thinks a re-roll would be too weak. I also think a re-roll would be too weak, but I think he should quit with the size modifier. How about +d6 to the original roll for going down? If you then re-roll a Piling On, you'd get to re-roll the d6 instead of the whole thing.

Issue #3 JKL is correct on size mods, but Chet's at least trying.
Chet 2 - JKL 1

I don't want Pro to ever have anything to do with the armour roll. I'd like to see it changed to affect only turnovers. So, you can't use Pro on a push, an armour roll, Bone Head, or even an inaccurate pass. Maybe to compensate the Pro roll can become 2+. Sure Feet would be real unpopular but most of the other re-roll skills have other uses. Pass re-rolls inaccurate passes, Dodge affects blocking, and Sure Hands prevents Strip Ball.

Issue #4 You're both screwy on Pro, and I'm even screwier.
Chet 2 - JKL 1

Razor Sharp Fangs needs soem changing to fit with Chet's scheme, but JKL is right. This idea is completely unapealling. I'd prefer to see Thick Skull become a Racial Characteristic and RSC go away because I don't like the subtle mutations. Let's think up a new flamboyant mutation and replace this one all together. The armour/apoth mod could work if we keep the mutation but it shouldn't be so much better compared to MB.

Issue #5 JKL properly dislikes Chet's idea.
Chet 2 - JKL 2

For pushing players into the crowd, I say why not? It's a casualty caused by a block. A rules lawyer could get away with this interpretation now. Let's make it official. Without Frenzy's awesome power to abuse it I see no harm.

Issue #6 Chet is right about pushes off the pitch.
Chet 3 - JKL 2

I don't like allowing TRRs on armour rolls. Chaos should be a master at causing casualties but they'd be made relatively weaker at it if re-rolls were allowed. If you can ban them on injury rolls, why not ban them for armour re-rolls? But, if this is what the crowd wants, I guess I'll go along.

Issue #7 I oppose both on Armour Rolls & Team Re-Rolls.
Chet 3 - JKL 2

Dirty Player doesn't need its current super-strength on fouls. +2 on armour is good enough. There isn't much to say here. A dirty player sounds extra good at fouling to me, not at getting away with it, so I disagree with JKL. I think the +2 could even apply to assists.

Issue #8 Chet wins on Dirty Player.
Chet 4 - JKL 2

IGMEOY could go either way. I don't think fouls should only be spotted on 6's, but I don't like the ref counter. I'd prefer to see every assister have to pass the ref roll. This would help make big fouls less popular and it'll give reason to let the dirty player keep his mod for assists.

Issue #9 JKL is right about the ref by default.
Chet 4 - JKL 3

We don't need "Sneaky Player" but we could use some new skills. I don't like the idea of a foul guard. Instead, if everyone else has to pass ref rolls, I think Sneaky Players should be exempt on assists. If no one likes that idea, maybe a Sneaky Player could give your coach an Argue the Call re-roll.

Issue #10 Chet gets the point for trying.
Chet 5 - JKL 3

I don't think players deserve SPPs just for fouling. I'd rather add SPPs for tackling before this. Don't reverse one of the best changes you were originally responsible for.

Issue #11 If anyone gets a point for SPPs, it should be Toby.
Chet 5 - JKL 3

Stunty can lose the Injury mod and it wouldn't affect the game much. I think Halflings should lose a point of armour if Goblins have to. One point of Movement doesn't equal 10k for such a weak player.

Issue #12 Stunty players can exchange armour for the injury mod.
Chet 6 - JKL 4

Skinks should be as wimpy as goblins, with or without the dodge bonus and passing penalty. The real danger of skinks isn't the Stunty, it's Dodge and high movement. I say we drop their armour to 6 and take away Stunty. Maybe then they could be worth 50k and be given only Agility skills.

Issue #13 Skinks shouldn't be made better.
Chet 6 - JKL 4

I don't have a problem with the current version of Diving Tackle, but I can see how some are concerned about how it always works. I don't like Chet's mechanic because it doesn't have enough of an effect on 2+ dodges compared to the current version of Diving Tackle. Maybe Diving Tackle should take down anyone leaving your tackle zone on a straight 4+. It's simple, it'll bring down those 2+ dodgers more, but 4+ dodges will be stopped less.

Issue #14 JKL loses a point for dismissal of a new mechanic for DT.
Chet 6 - JKL 3

Jump Up could be a touch better, and standing up and the end of your opponent's action would do that. JKL says that adding actions during your opponent's turn shouldn't be done, which may be true but doesn't qualify as a reason to dismiss the effect of the idea. Why not let players use Jump Up in addition to their usual actions? So, a stunned player could unstun, then get up, or you could Jump Up everyone at the beginning of your turn, or you could go in whatever order you want, as long as it's your turn.

Issue #15 Sure, make Jump Up better.
Chet 7 - JKL 3

I don't see why we should change Leader or Trophy Re-rolls, so I don't agree with the change.

Issue #16 Why package Leader and Trophies into this?
Chet 7 - JKL 3

Very Long Legs could use a change. The movement increase is a big benefit, so if it goes away the VLL player should get more than +1 to intercept and a chance to negate a skill that no one uses. I think VLL should let you ignore the penalty for intercepting and negate Safe Throw. I'd also change the name to Very Long Limbs for improved modeling possibilities.

Issue #17 I'd like to see the change for VLL go further.
Chet 8 - JKL 4

That's the final score. I'm glad to be seeing some nice ideas. Let's hope there's more.



Pink Horror

[Dragoonkin]

Chet and Neo seem to have a lot of disagreements over rules changes. I think it may be interesting to see a copy of the minutes for the forthcoming rules review.

Your inbox isn't big enough.

Is mine? It's about 5 gigs or so.

Want want want!

[Thadrin]

For what its worth, my 0.02 on those changes (if its not mentioned, I'm fine with the idea):

Claw - I liked the +2 AV/-1 Ball handling myself. certainly more than this idea.

P.On - I still like the idea of an AV reroll for this one.

Pro - I'm against AV and Injury rerolls so I don't like it. I like PH's thing about allowing it only against Turnovers. That hits big guys a bit but that doesn't bother me so much.

RSF - seems redundant. If there is one thing there is plenty of its mutation options. Why not just do away with it entirely.

SPPS (crowd) - I think the player should be allowed to roll to see if he hurt the guy before the crowd get their hands on him. Spps if he did, not if he didn't.

TRR on AV - no thanks.


IGMEOY - Should stay.

Sneaky fouler - nah. We don't need a guard for fouls.

Foul SPP - no. bad.

Stunty changes - fine if you bump up the price of skinks. I thought the lack of general skills for skinks was one of the main challenges though.

Jump up - if you don't like the "End of opponents turn" thing, make it "start of his own team turn. This does NOT count as an action."


I think that was everything.

[Deathwing]

Don't like this Jump Up at start of turn/end of opponents turn lark. At all.
It's basically gonna mean that you're going to have to cover every prone reciever with Jup as if he was standing. I don't want Woodies or GRs recieving short/quick passes 3 squares into my half and scoring after I've knocked them down in the previous turn. BOA.

[Vitalis]

Just my two cents:

Looks fine except anything changing the 'ground rules' for rolling the dice.

I.E.
don't like roll two dice, select the lower/upper.
don't like roll three dice, select lower/upper.
don't like roll more than one dice, discard unwanted/best result.

And of course:
don't like reroll on AV.

[Pink Horror]

Deathwing, there isn't much of a difference regarding witch elfs as receivers. If left uncovered he could easily make it into the endzone and catch the pass there. Throwers still take accurate nowadays, right?



Pink Horror

[Deathwing]

Deathwing, there isn't much of a difference regarding witch elfs as receivers. If left uncovered he could easily make it into the endzone and catch the pass there. Throwers still take accurate nowadays, right?



Pink Horror

All depends who's throwing the ball. Not a vast difference maybe with an AG4 Accurate thrower. Big difference if you've got to throw a Long Bomb with somebody else. Probably a higher rate of interception attempts as well. How about Hand Offs? There's also the point that if the throw does go astry or is incomplete, the reciever in the EZ's got an immediate appointment with the crowd.
Do we really need to make it easier to score for speedy agile teams?
It just feels plain wrong to me.

[Marcus]

Adding another 2 yen

Claw

I think it's worth a shot. The "pick the best dice" paradigm is already established in the game so I don't think it's too much of a stretch.

Piling On

Unsure about this one. Not overly keen on the "class of players" bit although I'm sure it keeps the numbers right. I do like the idea of still being forced to take the risk of rerolling if you go prone tho.

Pro

Unsure as to why we need to include armour breaches here. I like the fact that pro can be used to reroll just about anything else. I prefer to keep armour rolls in the lap of Nuffle. Even with piling on you have to "do something else" in order to breach the armour.

Razor Sharp Fangs

Interesting idea. Will require playtesting.

SPPs for Crowd Casualties

Huzzah! Never liked the removal of that. AFAIC the player injured an opponent through his own actions. Whether the ground does it or the crowd should not matter.

Team Re-rolls used to re-roll AV

Still don't like rerolling armour. Especially not through "good team training".

+1 for fouling a stunned player

Unnecessary cruft IMO. It also encourages fouling for casualties which I've never been keen on.

Dirty Player

Would rather see dirty player affect your chances of being caught, not of doing damage. Any muppet can stand on someone's neck or kick them in the kidneys, but it takes a pro to make it look like an accident.

IGMEOY

Absolutely not. I like IGMEOY, don't want to see it go.

Sneaky Player

cf my comment on dirty player. I'd like to see this included into the DP skill and just have the bonus to avoid detection.

SPPs for fouls

cf my comment about "any muppet". Would rather not see this. It encourages last turn attrition fouls for the sake of "just getting some SPPs"

Stunty + Goblin AV

If you're getting rid of inj modifiers this seems to me the way to go.

Skinks

Should make for a very different lizard man team. I made extensive use of my skinks' stunty trait. General skill access should balance that out. Especially given Dauntless requires doubles.

Diving Tackle

I like it as it was, I would prefer it just to be modified so that it must be declared before the dodge is made. The two dice version does seem to be less useful against AG4 dodgers whereas the -2 version actually made 2 heads a more useful mutation.

Jump Up

I like this version. The existing Jump Up is an agility trait that it best used by high strength blockers. I would rather see it back in the hands of recievers and I think this will do nicely. Yes, you have to mark a Jump Up player if you knock him down. I kinda think that's the point.

Leader and Trophy rerolls

Never really used leader so I will need to playtest.

Very Long Legs

While I think WA has hurt Skavs enough without removing their primary route to 1TTD monsters I suppose this makes some sense. That's not to say I'd ever get the goddamn skill if this was all it did.

I'll be putting forward Chet's slate for playtest in our open league so I can put my money where my mouth is after we've used it for a while.

Marcus

[Longshot]

Ok, those things sounds well exepet this for me:


-Stunty: The +1 to injury mod is removed. The passing range restriction remains.

-Goblins & Halflings: Reduce the Goblin's AV to 6.

-Skinks: Skinks are no longer Stunty. They have access to both General and Agility skills.


-Jump Up: A prone player with this skill may stand up for free at the end of the opposing team's turn, but before his own team turn begins.

-Leader: One per game

-Very Long Legs: Add +1 to the dice roll whenever the player attempts to intercept the football. In addition, opposing players may not use the Safe Throw skill against this player - he's simply too tall to avoid!


I would not change the rules for those ones . All the others are interesting to try.

IMHO
C ya

[Furelli]

Hello all,

Time for my comprehensive look at each change of Chets. Basically I will look at every change he wants to test and comment. I will suggest an alterative if needed. Finally I am a great beliver in the phrase "if it aint broke..."

1/ Blocking Skills

Claw. I agree with Neo that this is too new of a rule. I would still go with the initial suggestion of +2AV, -1ball handling.

Mighty Blow. +1AV, pure and simple. IF you want it to do more then also
-2 on Thick Skull roll.

Piling On. I love the idea of this being a re-roll on AV. I think Neo is right in saying this should be the only re-roll on AV. I do however think that there should be a bonus on the re-roll but it should be: Stunty +0, Man-Sized +1, Big Guy +3. No other modifiers should apply.

Pro. Leave as is.

Razor Sharp Claws/Fangs. I agree with the cats. +1AV, -2 Apoc.
Skills should be stackable.

Star Player Points. I have no problem with this change.

Team Re-rolls. No. Only re-roll for AV should be Piling On.

2/ Fouling

Foul Action. I agree with the no initial +1, disagree with the proviso on stunned.

Dirty Player. This should be +2AV and -1Referee roll.

IGMEOY. Lose it, however sending offs should be on a constant 5+.

Sneaky Player. I like.

Star Player Points. Sounds viable with the above change.

3/ General

Stunty. I agree.

Goblins and Halflings. Fine.
However I can see that the 10k difference in pricing may be disproportianate with 1MV and so Halflings should gain a racial characteristic of Glass Jaw: an injury roll of a 7 counts as a knocked out.

Skinks. Do not take away my stunties. Reduce AV to 6. Period.

4/ Misc.

Diving Tackle. No need to change this. Except that it should be stackable with Prehensile Tail and used before the dice roll.

Jump Up. Why change it?

Leader. Is fine as is.

Trophy re-rolls. No comment, I've never played with them

VLL. Change name to very long limbs. I like the other change.


My additions.

If a player has a skill and fufills the requirements to use it, he can. None of this only one player may Pass Block rubbish.

All skill that effect dice rolls should be used BEFORE the dice roll.

Actions should be described as anything a player can perform without a skill and not during another team members action. This would therefore include interceptions. Assists do not count.

Thats it.

Furelli.