New position players...

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 1:33 pm

A dragon can't handle the ball so not on the BB pitch

. But a dragon ogre is a kind of centaur with dragon and ogre, they are really
powerfull, and gain frenzy, when hit by lightning ... (in WHB world)

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:02 pm

Hmmmmm ... just had a Rookie High Elf team with a Young Dragon on the roster join the league ... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm .... Trambi hates animals on the pitch ...... hmmmmmmmm..... let's see where is that random assignment program ... okay ... Galak grabs programming wrench and screwdriver .... #!$%@%^... dropped one on my toe ... *bang*crash*cluck*

There we go:

{Programming Notes: Assign Opponents for Round 2 of MBBL2}
Open MBBL2TeamTable
For J := 1 to MBBL2TeamTable.NumberOfTeams begin
..ASSIGN MBBL2.Randnum := Rnd(MBBL2.LeaguePoints);
..IF MBBL2.Coach := Trambi then MBBL2.Randnum := 0;
..For I := 1 to MBBL2.MaxNumberofPlayers
....IF MBBL2.PlayerPosition := 'Young Dragon' then MBBL2.Randnum := 0;
end;
Order MBBL2TeamTable by MBBL2.Randnum Descending Use OrderedTableResults;
Ordernumber := 2;
For J := 1 to MBBL2TeamTable.NumberOfTeams begin
..MBBL2.GameNumber := Int(Ordernumber/2);
..Ordernumber := Ordernumber + 1;
end;
Export MBBL2.TeamName MBBL2.GameNumber to FinalRound2Matches Format EXCEL;

My luck Trambi isn't a programmer and won't get the joke ... oh well. Just for the record Trambi, I only have 3 Animals allowed on the pitch in the MBBL2, Young Dragons (High Elf), Unicorn (Amazon), Squig (Night Goblin). The Forest Goblins have 3 Animals but they all have Goblin Riders. Also the Gnome and the Robot team can have players without usable hands ... that's all.

Galak

[ This Message was edited by: GalakStarscraper on 2002-03-20 14:07 ]

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:11 pm

I still think a Dragon Ogre would be:
Dragon Ogre:
6/5/2/9
Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Sprint, Sure Feet
Wild Animal, Bonehead
130k

Caveat the player that Bonehead rolls are always made before any action including the required block from WA.

But if Trambi wants no Bonehead ... can't be a good Ogre without Bonehaed ... grumble, grumble ... if you lose Bonehead price him out at 150k

Galak

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Wed Mar 20, 2002 2:23 pm

So dragon ogre without bonehaed but with wild animal 150k !
I'm a programmer

[ This Message was edited by: Trambi on 2002-03-20 14:24 ]

Rupert · Post by **Rupert** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 10:36 am

Just a little comment on the discussion between Trambi and Galak (about teams).

I’m a rookie on bb, but Galak have been kind enough to play a tutorial game with me in his league.

Hence, the following thourghts are not based on large expirience but sometimes ”new eyes” see things more experienced people do not notice.

About the number of teams, I think this is a question of personal preference – as far as I have understood the very idea in Galaks league is to try out new concepte including new teams. In Galaks league I see one potential danger though:

Before contacting Galak and asking for permission to join his league I browsed the net for articles on BB and must have read about a hundred articles on tactic etc. On joining the league I was amased because of the many great teams, but also I became a little worried because I think there is a danger of ”inflation” – the teams are simply becomming too good. In the many articles I read that elves are the fast teams (along with skaven) – this is the very idea about elves, they elegantly out-run (and humiliate) their opponents. But among the many new team concepts there are teams just as fast (my high elves are currently being out-paced by holy arabs in the match against Galak). In the articles I read that orcs and dwarfs and chaos are the bruiser teams, but with the many new teams concepte this is not neccesarily so (just look at the golems or the draconians or some of the vampire concepts).

I’m not for the idea about ”back to basics” because then I would have choosen another league. What I’m saying is: Keep the basic ideas in mind – orcs/chaos should remain the hardest hitting teams because they can feild a few st 4 guys. Elves and skaven should have the fastest linerplayers, and the fastest position players (be the overall fastest).

Also the many teams means a danger when it comes to allies: the orcs can feild a HobGob position player giving them a superfast catcher (the Evil Git). In my opinion this is not ”orkish”.

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 1:56 pm

So what your position about dragon ogre ?
Another question do you agree with you

?
If you do, you are the first

tommy316 · Post by **tommy316** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 1:57 pm

Here's what I've got for Dragon Orges- This came about with help from a couple boards and I believe the mailing list:
($150k) 6 5 2 9 SKILLS: Mighty Blow, Stand Firm TRAITS: Big Guy, Bonehead, Thick Skull, **Sleepy Head, TTM

Explainations:
STAND FIRM seems more of a "logical" (lack of better word) skill then Sprint and Sure Feet. I don't picture dragons as sprinting creatures, their just big so each step is huge. Dragon Orges are big, but not full Dragon size.
**SLEEPY HEAD - Works just like TAKE ROOT, I was given this idea a long time ago by someone at GW (that actually wanted me to right article for the idea in the CJ, but this was several years ago and I did know enough of the DO's history to make a decent story). That person made mention of Dragon Orges sleeping alot-can anyone confirm this????!?!?!?!

[ This Message was edited by: tommy316 on 2002-03-26 13:59 ]

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Tue Mar 26, 2002 2:00 pm

Your stats seem very logical. I like your dragon ogre, strong but not too fast. Stability is a very skill/trait for these guys.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:54 pm

Rupert:

You cannot have a new team without it having some comparisons to existing teams. Very few NEW teams are completely different.

I can take every new teams in the MBBL2 and tell you its closest relative from the official 15.

That said realize one important thing about the MBBL2 ... the league is about 50% NEW teams and 50% GW. However the 10 teams that made the finals in the MBBL2 for the 1st season were 8 GW and only 2 NEW. This argues
against any imbalance with the new teams.

And as for Elves being fast ... no Elves are agile, skaven are fast. The Holy Araby team is a Skaven team with modified Black Orc Blockers and a Frenzy'd Catcher instead of Storm Vermin and Gutter Runners.

As for the allies .... allies are tightly restricted in the MBBL2. If you look through the rosters you will see that most teams have no allies .... or have a single ally. If you want to play with a player that can use team rerolls ... well that's your choice, but it will often burn you.

I have a small league that plays only straight BB2k1 with the 15 official teams and there are other leagues starting that do the same. The MBBL2 is a test ground for teams ... with 76 rosters allowed there is going to be overlapped ... there is no way to avoid it. However, the members have fun. The MBBL2 is the largest PBeM league in the world and its still only about 50% new teams. I'm very happy with how the league is working.

Galak

[ This Message was edited by: GalakStarscraper on 2002-03-27 12:55 ]

tommy316 · Post by **tommy316** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 8:41 pm

Looking around at another discussion on the BBC about Dragon Ogres. To make the most accurate Dragon Ogre (with all their characteristics- from what I gather) it would be something like this:
ATT: 6 5 2 9
SKILLS: Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, FRENZY
TRAITS: Big Guy, Bonehead, Thick Skull, Sleepy Head, WILD ANIMAL, CLAWS, PREHENSILE TAIL

Now I know that this is an OVER description of the player, but that's about what he'd amount to.
Anybody out there know enough to figure out the price of this guy? 3 negative traits- ain't that a Bee-yaach!!!

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:22 pm

I think the "most accurate" description of a Dragon Ogre would properly designate this curiosity a Star Player. The majority of DOgres just aren't playing Blood Bowl for any number of reasons.

Don't let that stop you from trying 'em out in your own league, though!

-Chet

tommy316 · Post by **tommy316** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 10:35 pm

I was thinking the same thing about making him a Star Player- and with skills and traits like that, he'd have to be.
But, the more basic/ stripped down version of the DO should work for Rookie DO's.
I really don't like Star Players to begin with.

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 10:52 pm

i'm just not sure this'll work. we're talking about something which, first of all, has no foundation in fluff at all (and citadel was doing dragon ogre minis back in the 2e days (nicer ones than the current iteration, too!), so it's not like they jsut got around to them)... secondly, i'm not sure it's a fit for bb from a practical standpoint... if you're having to load two or even three negative traits onto a player to balance his dramatically powerful profile, maybe that critter is either being over-valued in terms of ability, or is just flat-out too much to be included inside of the game's already strained balance. finally, is this critter really needed? what team needs him? the chaos team? they already have three big guys to choose from, why do they need a fourth?

you should be very carefull when attempting to add to bloodbowl... something new shouldn't be added because there are minis out there (especially when those minis would never fit into the space provided for a player on the board)... something you add to an existing team needs to be truly needed, truly usefull, but never grant that team any dimension to their game that has been limited or restricted by the intent of the rosters... elves should not get strength players, dwarves should not get agility players, and in this case, chaos should not get players with a high movement rate (the lack of speed and ball handling being the limitations to offset the strength and durability of the chaos team... and, again, they alreay have three big guys to choose from...

i'm always happy to entertain a purely speculative, purely amusement discussions of how you would represent x in bloodbowl.... but be wary of making the results of that idle speculation a part of your actual games...

DaFrenchCoach · Post by **DaFrenchCoach** » Wed Mar 27, 2002 11:35 pm

On 2002-03-27 22:52, Lucien Swift wrote:
if you're having to load two or even three negative traits onto a player to balance his dramatically powerful profile, maybe that critter is either being over-valued in terms of ability, or is just flat-out too much to be included inside of the game's already strained balance.

finally, is this critter really needed? what team needs him? the chaos team? they already have three big guys to choose from, why do they need a fourth?

you should be very carefull when attempting to add to bloodbowl... something new shouldn't be added because there are minis out there (especially when those minis would never fit into the space provided for a player on the board)... something you add to an existing team needs to be truly needed, truly usefull, but never grant that team any dimension to their game that has been limited or restricted by the intent of the rosters... elves should not get strength players, dwarves should not get agility players, and in this case, chaos should not get players with a high movement rate (the lack of speed and ball handling being the limitations to offset the strength and durability of the chaos team... and, again, they alreay have three big guys to choose from...

i'm always happy to entertain a purely speculative, purely amusement discussions of how you would represent x in bloodbowl.... but be wary of making the results of that idle speculation a part of your actual games...

Hello Lucien,

just in order to answer to some points...

On first point, I'm agree with you: BBC version is really hard to accept. Take a look on the beginning of the topic: I think a ST4 may be enough...

If you'd take a better look on the beginning of the topic (one more time), you would see I'm looking for Dragons ogres JUST for Chaos Halflings... A new big guy, for an unofficial team... Not for ALL Chaos team Rosters... Maybe for Khorne Daemon roster, instead of Bloodletter ? Not sure...

I should understand your point of view... but if everyone would do like you'd want, do you think Blood Bowl would have become what it is (typical french style

)? Let's think about vampires, and a lot of rules: sigurd table, ...

That's the reason why I hope I never said, and I will never say: "your idea is a stupid one, a waste of time", but "i disagree on it, but what do you think about it? How could we make it better ?"...

Lucien Swift · Post by **Lucien Swift** » Thu Mar 28, 2002 4:09 am

oh but DFC, you must remember that i am responsible for the foundations of one of the two chaos halfling rosters, the pixie team, the clan axme skaven, and several other less bizarre roster discussions as well... clearly, i'm not against the concept of adding to the game's variety... what i am against is teh unneccessary or unbalanced addition... i was just questioning the need for and the potency of the dragon ogre...

and for what it's worth, i've never been a big fan of the use of the champion on the chaos halfling team... i've had plenty of amusement and the desired results with my own version of the roster, which includes just the little runts and no allies at all....

my note was really intended to principly serve as a caveat against what i saw as a troublesome addition... had the consensus been "eh. just use a bull centaur's stat line" i would have still pointed out that this gives the chaos team more movement than it deserves, but not really cared much beyond that... however, the addition of another big guy option, and an especially powerful big guy at that, and a big guy with two to three negative traits... i just thought perhaps the eagerness to work a mini into the game had resulted in something that might not be a benefit to the game...

and i still think the model's too big for bloodbowl anyway...