Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[DoubleSkulls]

The intent
a. To curb the Big Bash dominance in high-TV play

If that's what you want to do then I think you have to address Claw as well as Piling On, which I think my proposal for stopping stacking between CLPOMB is a better one. Just weakening PO on its own I think will actually increase the supremacy of Claw enabled teams even further because CLMB will be a much better combo than POMB - so you'll get less Orcs & dwarves and more Chaos & Nurgle.

If may even be neater to just limit PO to Injury rolls and prevent Mighty Blow being used on the reroll, as well as preventing CLMB breaking armour on a 7. After all PO on armour makes AV a more significant stat and in practice you use PO to reroll AV against low armour much more often than against high armour, so the benefit against low AV teams is much more pronounced than the numbers would show if you assume you'll always pile on regardless.

[DoubleSkulls]

10. Orc blitzers cost 90K

I've looked at this a few times and I can't work out why you think its needed. I can't recollect any stats showing Orcs other than middle of the road, or perhaps even a little weaker.

That's just about the only think I don't like with the tier 1 and rules changes other than Piling On.

Tier 2/3 we aren't going to agree

[garion]

I'm interested to know why all the elves are getting away from this scot free.

Yeah limiting bash so they dont dominate in perpetual environement makes some sense. But what about Dark Elves, I think woodies you have done something with, high possibly dont need any rejigging because they always feel like they have an inflated tv when i play with them, though they are still awesome. Pro elves usually start amazingly well then drop off after a few seasons but dark elves are just plain awesome always.

to follow on from DS - random mutations

[Juriel]

And yes, I'm always on the side of nerfing elves.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion and all,

Garion said:

One change I always liked the idea of was to allow TTM to work as a long pass again (like LRB4) but only for big guys with Strong Arm. I think that would help them a little bit.

and Legowarrior said:

A skill for landing would boost all the stunty teams can we put that in the game? Or add it to another skill?

Both quite nice ideas. My personal favourite is +1 to the landing roll if you don't have the ball.
But I'm staying away from these so the rules won't get weighed down by lots of tiny tweaks.

Garion said:

No thanks, I hate Khemri, too boring for my taste. which other teams are in the other group?

Dude, you're not even trying now
Tweaked group: Orc, Dwarf, Woodies, Undead, Amazon, Human, Khemri, Vampire, Ogre, ½ling, Gobs, UW.
Original group: Darkies, Skaven, High, Chaos, CDs, Norse, Lizardmen, Necro, Elf, Nurgle, Pact, Slann

I fancy something different. Why dont we play your Kislev team I posted in that other thread

I like your spin on it, but tournament 2 will be pure NTBB.
No daemons, no Ithilmar Elfs, no Tileans. Heck, even no Bretonnians

Garion said:
About slightly boosted teams, i think that could be very tricky. Im happy jsut to do the same again really.
and Tourach agreed:

How do we know that the team progression is right. Every time i tried to play with boosted teams, something was just not right, linemen/BO/sauri and other low ag players had to many skill. Or one could try a team that would have faired badly underways but works well at the current tv, like an (just an idea) all standfirm dwarf team.

Well, I'll have to think hard, that's for sure. Luckily I've got 8 months
But I'll be shooting for around 130TV, so it won't be a big fake freak - just something like a 5-7 game head start. I'll pull some stats to get the skill/cash ratio right, and I'll also work up some stats to get the SPP spread reasonably sensible. Finally, I'll have people pick their skills - then add in a handful of MVPs after the fact, so the teams can't be completely tailored. And finally, of course, this won't be a resurrection tournament, so it's real progression from there - meaning TV sweet-spotting is likely to go sour as teams develop.

I think it will be worth it to get a head start on some of the interesting combos.

There are lots of teams I'd love to try out myself. Gobbos and zons certainly come to mind.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi again Garion (and Juriel):

I'm interested to know why all the elves are getting away from this scot free.

Heh, say that to the wood elf coaches
But it all boils down to the league play data I started with. And also the fact that I can't keep nerfing until I've nerfed everything - though that is certainly what some pundits predicted would happen. Most likely Darkies, CDs, Lizards and Skaven will be new top teams. And there will always be top teams. My hope is that they'll be top teams by a much narrower margin, because the bottom has come up - and more importantly because they'll be sharing the top with those 5 überteams that got nerfed just a little.

But the 200K wizard, that's intended to screw with the elfs

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Doubleskulls,
thanks for playing along with my premise

If that's what you want to do then I think you have to address Claw as well as Piling On, which I think my proposal for stopping stacking between CLPOMB is a better one.

By Big Bash I don't just mean Chaos. I mean all of the high AV bashy teams. Sure, Claw rules the perpetual online leagues currently, but I've heard from several tabletop leagues dominated by Dwarfs and Orcs too.

Either way, I'm not sure your version is kind enough on AV7s for my taste, but admittedly your stats elude me. Be that as it may for now. Remember I'm coming at this from several angles. First off is using Bank, SE and Concessions to drop the maximum sustainable TV a bit. Hopefully coming down from 250 to 225. I think the higher TV goes, the more supirior Chaos (and Nurgle) becomes, because they have good stats and good skill access, but need a lot of skills (and thereby TV) to really rock.

Bear in mind that in all previous editions, Chaos teams have had some big trump-skill in the bashing game. Claw or Fang have always been decisive. But somehow not as much as it currently is. As far as I can tell that's because currently the bashstack is simply too darn good. If it was weaker, then even if claw gives an advantage, then other tactics than pure bash could stand up to it.

Not to mention that other kinds of teams than big-bash could survive at high-TV, diversifying the range of opponents - thereby forcing Bashers to skill up for other things than just facing other bash teams.

Finally, It's been a while since I ran the math, but I believe Block, POMB (3 skills) stands up pretty well to blockless CPOMB (3 skills). So like I said Chaos teams need a lot of skill rolls to truly get ahead. Not to mention that both Orcs and Dwars have S-guys that start with Block, meaning they could add Frenzy or even Pro as their 3rd skill if they just wanted to go with the arms race.

That's how I see it anyway.
But admittedly there's some theorybowling in there
Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi again Doubleskulls,

That's just about the only think I don't like with the tier 1 and rules changes other than Piling On.

Wow - I'm pretty darn pleased with that!

I've looked at this a few times and I can't work out why you think its needed. I can't recollect any stats showing Orcs other than middle of the road, or perhaps even a little weaker.

Nice spot. You've found one of the few things I'm still not cute sure of.
Orcs do indeed go middle of the road in all stats - and I'd be perfectly happy to be able to say that I had tweaked 'less than half of the teams (11)' rather than 'half of the teams (12)'.

But I do think Orcs are an awesome team. Maybe all the noobs playing them are pulling down their stats. And in previous environments, where bash was less brutal, their sheer muscle made them a powerful choice. And I think they will be again. Certainly I've had more comments that orcs need a nerf, then comments (such as yours) disagreeing with it. So I'm inclined to keep it, even though the evidence is circumstantial at best.

Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

If that's what you want to do then I think you have to address Claw as well as Piling On, which I think my proposal for stopping stacking between CLPOMB is a better one. Just weakening PO on its own I think will actually increase the supremacy of Claw enabled teams even further because CLMB will be a much better combo than POMB - so you'll get less Orcs & dwarves and more Chaos & Nurgle.

I disagree. What we're trying to do is to reduce the effectiveness of a roll against AV7 while maintaining (or at least not reducing by as much) the effectiveness of the same roll against AV9. (I'm ignoring MB for these purposes, since I'm assuming the player doesn't have it; the trend holds if he does).

If your target is AV7 (8 required) then a reroll will increase the odds of AV break from 41.67% to 65.97%, whereas the +1 increases it to 58.33%.
The RR increased the odds by 58.33% while the +1 increased the odds by 40% - the RR increases the odds 1.45 times as much as the +1 does.

If your target is AV9 (10 required) then a reroll will increase the odds of AV break from 16.67% to 30.55%, whereas the +1 increases it to 27.77%.
The RR increased the odds by 83.33% while the +1 increases the odds by 66.67% - the RR increases the odds 1.25 times as much as the +1 does.

In other words, a RR will more effectively increase the odds against AV7 than it will against AV9 than a +1 modifier will. If you want to reduce the casualties overall, AND reduce the casualties in particular to lower AV teams, then +1 is a better choice of effect than a RR.

This means that while changing PO to +1 will mean a reduction in its effectiveness against AV8 and 9, that reduction will be smaller than the reduction in effectiveness against AV7 (i.e with claw). It is therefore a relative nerf to claw.

If may even be neater to just limit PO to Injury rolls and prevent Mighty Blow being used on the reroll, as well as preventing CLMB breaking armour on a 7. After all PO on armour makes AV a more significant stat and in practice you use PO to reroll AV against low armour much more often than against high armour, so the benefit against low AV teams is much more pronounced than the numbers would show if you assume you'll always pile on regardless.

I would prefer to state that claw has no effect on AV increases taken as skills. Therefore anyone with +AV will have an effective AV of 8 against claw, and two of them would be effective AV9. That would make it a far more viable selection (it's very rarely taken now) and available to all teams equally (thus reducing the overall attrition, if only slightly).

[Tourach]

I would prefer to state that claw has no effect on AV increases taken as skills. Therefore anyone with +AV will have an effective AV of 8 against claw, and two of them would be effective AV9. That would make it a far more viable selection (it's very rarely taken now) and available to all teams equally (thus reducing the overall attrition, if only slightly).

I am intrigued by this!

[garion]

yeah just leave orcs alone, no need to mess with them really, thought they are far better than their stats suggest probably as a result of noob play. But they are very slow and I dont think they are one of the uber teams anymore.

I think I will just stick with flings for now, none of those races interest me atm. But that may change closer to the time.

Claw doesn't effect +Av, thats a big no no for me. It doesn't make any sense. Although now we are on the subject I hate that people can now get +Av stat increase, that doesnt make any sense at all. Bring back spikes for mutations and get rid of +av all together it is just stupid. How playing a game makes your armour better I will never know, it is very strange. It can't change your bone structure etc.. because then that would have to be a mutation so how does this work? Its just daft.

[dode74]

Claw doesn't effect +Av, thats a big no no for me. It doesn't make any sense. Although now we are on the subject I hate that people can now get +Av stat increase, that doesnt make any sense at all. Bring back spikes for mutations and get rid of +av all together it is just stupid. How playing a game makes your armour better I will never know, it is very strange. It can't change your bone structure etc.. because then that would have to be a mutation so how does this work? Its just daft.

Consider it ju-jitsu like training which allows you to take hits (from players and the floor) without being hurt as much. This is represented by an increase in AV which is unaffected by claw. An AV increase makes you tougher; it's not necessarily making your actual armour better.

Fluff can explain anything

[garion]

Claw doesn't effect +Av, thats a big no no for me. It doesn't make any sense. Although now we are on the subject I hate that people can now get +Av stat increase, that doesnt make any sense at all. Bring back spikes for mutations and get rid of +av all together it is just stupid. How playing a game makes your armour better I will never know, it is very strange. It can't change your bone structure etc.. because then that would have to be a mutation so how does this work? Its just daft.

Consider it ju-jitsu like training which allows you to take hits (from players and the floor) without being hurt as much. This is represented by an increase in AV which is unaffected by claw. An AV increase makes you tougher; it's not necessarily making your actual armour better.

Fluff can explain anything

No it can't, because that is basically the reason I tell my self for Thick Skull now being an obtainable skill. Av means armour value not ability to take knocks, like Thick Skull, so we cant have the same flimsy excuse for both. Though personally I think it is stupid that thick skull can be taken as well. But Av definately shouldn't, its lame.

Luckily they are both almost compeltely ignored so thats ok

[dode74]

And AG means agility, not ability to handle the ball (dexterity). They are both category values which cover a number of things.

AV and Thick Skull alter different rolls.

Anyway, this is not one of plasmoid's changes, so we would discuss it elsewhere.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
not sure it's a discussion worth having, but AV isn't just the armor. It's a combination of armor and toughness/stamina. And stamina can be trained.
An Orc lineman isn't just an elf in a platemail.
Cheers
Martin