Alternative Humans

[Xadie]

See post above your's. I'm persuaded that my original suggestion is too strong. Nevertheless I see the humans are in need of a strong buff. Suggestions like cost reduction to 60k or raise of the AV by one doesn't cut it. You would either save no more then 20k of TV because most teams have no more than 2 catchers or the catcher would change from a underperforming position to a underperforming position with little bit more staying power.
He is just not fit for the job and statistics prove that humans are consistently on the lower end of Tier 1. This calls for some real buff.

0-16 Linemen 6338 G-ASP 50k
0-2 Throwers 6338 Pass, Sure Hands GP-AS 70k
0-2 Catchers 7337 Catch Dodge GA-SP 80k
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block GS-AP 90k
0-1 Ogre 5529 Loner, Bone-head, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team-Mate S-GAP 140k

I agree that the strength increase on the catcher is a big change but it would make them so much more usefull. Still, St3 (with exception of the ogre) coupled with Ag3 across the board is quite average, so I don't think Humans will become overpowered all of the sudden. Limiting them to max. 2 allows humans to develop up to 6 blitzer-like players which is good but nothing out of the ordinary. Although the combination of 4 str-access blitzers and 2 agi-access "blitzer" is unique, it would also be the main selling point for humans.

[mattgslater]

To me, that's a huge buff. ST2 Catchers are a little limiting, but it's a fun limitation. And I quite like that MA8, thanks.

I wouldn't be opposed to two tinkers, of the sort that will have an exponential effect, like better AV on the Catcher and -10k price on the Ogre (which would also be good for that sad-sack Ogre team).

[Xadie]

I don't get. Would it really help to have Catchers with AV8 and Ogre 130k that much? On the pitch they will perform almost no different. I mean, wow, you save 10k on one player and reducing the TV of humans 10k as well - big deal. With AV8 the catcher might stay longer on the pitch doing what? Reliable Catching & Dodging with AV3? Pehaps blocking with his wonderfull St2? Allthough relative quick they are pushovers. Very minor changes and you think that will push humans out of the valley of sadness?

Just to remind you what the statistics say:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB6Stats.htm
http://naf.doubleskulls.net/lrb6.html#Humans
http://naf.doubleskulls.net/lrb5.html#Humans
also the Cyanide Blood Bowl Manager rankes Humans at the bottom of all the 9 race currently implemented (only Goblin are worse)

This is evidence gathered over many months and years.
Now this posts reads a bit cheeky and I don't mean it as offence but I think that such rather minor changes will fall short.

[SillySod]

As a keen vampire/human/hobgolin coach.... av8 vs av7 makes a significant difference.

[Xadie]

As a elf player I have rather a capable AV7 position then a AV8 player not worth it's salt.
Also we're talking about players that never appear with more than two at any time on the pitch - changing AV7 to AV8 won't make much of an impact. That's nothing like changing something like Thralls from AV7 to AV8 - now that makes a difference

[mattgslater]

I don't get. Would it really help to have Catchers with AV8 and Ogre 130k that much? On the pitch they will perform almost no different.

Cheekiness pardoned, as long as you forgive me for being a bit verbose.

Neither of those fixes is nearly as minor as it looks. Both impact the economics of the team in ways that play upon one another. The +AV on Catchers also has significant schematic impact on both sides of the ball, but especially on offense.

130k Ogre doesn't sound like a big deal, but at 1M or 1.1M, it's major. Check out the math.

1x Ogre: 140k
4x Blitzer: 360k
2x Thrower/Catcher: 140k
4x Lineman: 200k
3x TRR: 150k
10k bank
Early purchases: Apoth (40k), Thrower/Catcher (70k).

Two Throwers are cool, as they're tough and grow up fast, but your team is kind of one-dimensional without Catchers. Two Catchers limits your style, because with 11 men you always have to field them, and they're ST2/AV7. A Thrower and a Catcher is a nice compromise, but just having one Catcher on your roster really impedes his progress, because he soaks up so much attention. Also, you want to have three Catchers in a perpetual format, because Catchers have multiple exclusive builds and you need to build at least one man on the bench because they take so much damage. You can't really take four, because you need a line rotation and can't put Catchers up there.

But if the Catchers are AV8 and the Ogres are 130k...

1x Ogre: 130k
4x Blitzer: 360k
1x Thrower: 70k
2x Catcher: 140k
3x Lineman: 150k
3x TRR: 150k
Early purchases: Apoth (50k), Lineman (50k).

You do have that whole 2xST2 and 11 men thing, but those ST2 guys are AV8/Dodge, so you can mark with them, and you can give one of them Block and Side Step and use him as your point-man, like a Ghoul, only tougher and subject to hits from just one guy. (It still has to be a guy with Tackle or Grab!) As is, that guy dies a lot, so it's hard to keep him in stock, and it really impacts Human skill memory. Most teams use Blitzers instead, which makes the elfy downfield cages that much harder to pull off. You also get a Thrower to start going along with that, courtesy of the price reduction on the Ogre, which is a lot better in the early game than a Lino and 10k in the bank.

You still can't afford all your Catchers on a max team, but three Catchers can be built in three different ways with no regard for backing them up, as long as you can scheme to play without any given one. Also, if worse comes to worst, you can throw a Catcher to the line with a lot more confidence. Heck, if you know you're giving up 3d on all the line hits anyway, you might as well put your Block/SS Catcher up there; at AV8, he's actually a pretty good line value when ST3 won't cut it either. And then after he gets pushed, he can get up and leave after you've finished the easy and important actions (or even earlier if you've burned your TRR), as opposed to the poor guys next to him who stand up like Zombies ready to take another hit.

[plasmoid]

Hi Xadie,
for what it's worth I really don't like the thought of ST3 catchers. I think it takes away from the flavour of the human team.

As a elf player I have rather a capable AV7 position then a AV8 player not worth it's salt. Also we're talking about players that never appear with more than two at any time on the pitch

Maybe there would be more of them on the pitch if they were AV8!
AV8 dodge (ST2) is harder to hurt than a human lineman.
Plus they are a lot more mobile.
I think the are "worth their salt". MA8 on a player with dodge is very handy. If they had AV8 I'd feel a lot better about skilling them up, because they're a lot less likely to die. And with 1 or 2 skills (block/wrestle and dauntless) they become very useful indeed.

Then again, if your problem with them is that they aren't reliable, perhaps you should be advocating for diving catch as a bonus instead?

I do agree that they're low tier 1. And a buff would be nice. But with the rules being locked down, it would have to be a house rule buff.
Cheers
Martin

[Patchwork]

See post above your's.

Sorry about missing that

[plasmoid]

Thinking about it, I'm convinced that a lot of people play their catcher (and hence their team) wrong.
But if everybody does it, then I guess the team is weak.

What I mean is - if you build 4 catchers, it's crazy overkill. And considering just how many opponents will want to 2-1 grind you, then 4 catchers is the last thing you need. You need 1 good reciever. Possibly a back-up or an OTS player. The remaining ones should (IMO) be blitzers and cage-breakers.

Cheers
Martin

[Patchwork]

I'm fond of one catcher built as a mobile dirty player.

[Xadie]

I do agree that they're low tier 1. And a buff would be nice. But with the rules being locked down, it would have to be a house rule buff.

well that's the reason this topic is in the house rule section of the forum. But anyway I firmly believe that when everyone plays with the house rule it practicaly will become somehow "official" as the player base cares more for BB as GW will anytime now and in the future. (for quite understandable business reasons)

BTW: I'm absolute for the bretonnian team

but those ST2 guys are AV8/Dodge, so you can mark with them, and you can give one of them Block and Side Step and use him as your point-man, like a Ghoul, only tougher and subject to hits from just one guy.

I see your reasons and yes they would work quite better if you use them as a marker. But is that what Humans really need? Shouldn't they have actually someone who fills the catcher roll better? Currently we mark with Linemen ok. The difference between a AV8 ST2 Catcher with Dodge and our trusty ST3 AV8 Linemen for the sole purpose of marking is in quite a lot game situations not that big, except former is more mobile (in theory, as they aren't good dodgers and without Dauntless they have strong problems to block themself free) and more expensive. Now having a better marker would not revolutionize the human game and I can't see how that pulls them out of the ~38% winning zone they have on the cyanide blood bowl game for example (according to the BloodBowl game manager, which admittably dosn't count every game made with cyanide blood bowl, only replays that have been uploaded by users)

Then again, if your problem with them is that they aren't reliable, perhaps you should be advocating for diving catch as a bonus instead?

I really thought about that. It might help in his role as a catcher. But then it should be in tandem with Thrower starting out with accurrate. It really would raise their passing game out-of-box a lot and frees up skill choices for other important stuff.

-----------

Although I still think making Catchers St3 would stop most of their reliability issues and that changing his AV to 8 is not enough. (Plus the Oger change effects mainly the start, but it's the long running leagues where humans struggle most.)
How about combining AV8 with a extra Skill on Catcher/Thrower?

0-2 Throwers 6338 Pass, Sure Hands, Accurate GP-AS 70k
0-2 Catchers 8238 Catch, Dodge, Diving Catch GA-SP 80k

[plasmoid]

Perhaps that could work for you
Either way, according to the formula, both players are undercosted.
Catchers ought to be 90K and Throwers already got a discount before, so one more skill for no cost is definately a massive price break.

And I'm not too impressed with the cyanide stats. It's screwed in too many ways.
But even the tabletop stats put them at 45%. I think the AV could put them at 50%.
But who knows. Certainly not I.

Cheers
Martin

[Xadie]

And I'm not too impressed with the cyanide stats. It's screwed in too many ways.

In which way? Approximately at least half of the replays come from league play, so the data is pretty solid.

Perhaps that could work for you
Either way, according to the formula, both players are undercosted.
Catchers ought to be 90K and Throwers already got a discount before, so one more skill for no cost is definately a massive price break.

So the blitzers are overcosted. And that Catchers will be overcosted is up to debate.
Just compare them with Gutter Runners and Dark Elf Runners:

Catchers 8238 Catch, Dodge, Diving Catch GA-SP 80k
Gutter Runners 9247 Dodge GA-PSM 80k
Dark Elf Runners 7347 Dumb-Off GAP-S 80k

Gutter Runners are faster and got AG4 which makes them more reliable Catchers, esspecially im combination with a RR. This will become even stronger with further skills. On top of that on doubles they can mutate which really gives them a boost.

Dark Elf Runners are slower and have less armor, but come with st3 and ag4. Which again makes them way more reliable especially when they lvl up also they have wider Skillaccess.

That extra Skill on the Catchers actually will put them somehow on par with both, as that +1AV has not that big effect of like something of +1AG

Put yep Throwers would be undercosted. But that skill would make that quick pass to a catcher in combination diving catch just vanilla elf like.
Well, pehaps exchanging Pass with Accurate?

6338 Sure Hands, Accurate GP-AS 70k

EDIT: corrected stat line of suggested thrower, I might even be enticed to say:
6337 Sure Hands, Accurate, Pass GP-AS 70k *thinking*

[SillySod]

Someone brought up the idea of six blitzers earlier in the thread. I definately like that idea, it'd give the team better long term development (which is poor) while not boosting their short term development (which is excellent). With 0-6 blitzers and av8 catchers humans would be pretty decent throughout development.

[mattgslater]

6 Blitzers
2 Throwers
3 Linemen
3 TRRs
20k bank
Sign me up!