Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[Darkson]

Nah. Make it claw subtracts 2 but never takes armour below 7. That is fairer on treemen or other AV10. +AV still works vs MB.

This.

The problem with this is it makes +AV of value to AV9 players but still of relatively little value to other players. The aim is to increase attrition among the high AV players relative to the low AV players.

Not a issue imo - if they take the +AV, they're not taking Block, Guard, MB, etc.

[koadah]

LRB 4 FUMBBL was the same as far as Chaos is concerned. Orcs and Dwarves have been replaced by Nurgle and CDs. viewtopic.php?p=630704#p630704

No, DoubleSkulls was looking at 2000+. That is a landslide for chaos and has only got worse since RandomOracle won the Fumbbl Cup.

[dode74]

Given that 5% of the games on FUMBBL take place at that TV, are we too worried about it?

And everyone wanting to play Chaos because of RO doesn't mean they will be successful. Have you read Freakonomics?

Not a issue imo - if they take the +AV, they're not taking Block, Guard, MB, etc.

The issue is that it doesn't allow us to use the +AV to reduce the casualty rates of the lower AV teams - part of the aim.

[garion]

LRB 4 FUMBBL was the same as far as Chaos is concerned. Orcs and Dwarves have been replaced by Nurgle and CDs. viewtopic.php?p=630704#p630704

No, DoubleSkulls was looking at 2000+. That is a landslide for chaos and has only got worse since RandomOracle won the Fumbbl Cup.

Yes the cpomb teams have replaced orc and dwarves or Lrb4 to a certain extent. But the reason they were so popular was not only because their bash ability. It was also down to how easy they were to develop when ageing was a concern which made developing other teams a lot harder. Getting rid of ageing, journeymen, se and wrestle all weaken their position anyway. There just doesn't seem to be the need for the cpomb mechanic too. Without it I think we would have far greater diversity than both rulesets. I like plasmoids Change because it would probably do away with po altogether except on the odd player.

[dode74]

But the reason they were so popular was not only because their bash ability. It was also down to how easy they were to develop when ageing was a concern which made developing other teams a lot harder.

Do you have any data to back that up, or are you just speculating?

[garion]

How could you possibly get data for that. It is just common sense. Bos only needed block and guard and blitzers only needed mb tackle and guard and linos needed dp and that was it. Dwarves just needed guard and mb just 2 skills. If you look at all the other races they needed more development back then which increases the chances of ageing. They also had av9 which was more important then without journeymen and made developing them without suffering too many cas easier.

[dode74]

The data might be historical data for individual player progression parsed into SPP gained per game over individual player types. FUMBBL may well have that data, but I have no idea how to get it.

"Common sense" is hardly common and rarely sensible, and is certainly no way to assess statistical data due to the multitude of biases to which it is subject, which is why I take your common sense answer with a pinch of salt - it is mere speculation based on how you think things work. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but that you have no basis on which to conclude you are right.

[koadah]

LRB 4 FUMBBL was the same as far as Chaos is concerned. Orcs and Dwarves have been replaced by Nurgle and CDs. viewtopic.php?p=630704#p630704

No, DoubleSkulls was looking at 2000+. That is a landslide for chaos and has only got worse since RandomOracle won the Fumbbl Cup.

Yes the cpomb teams have replaced orc and dwarves or Lrb4 to a certain extent. But the reason they were so popular was not only because their bash ability. It was also down to how easy they were to develop when ageing was a concern which made developing other teams a lot harder. Getting rid of ageing, journeymen, se and wrestle all weaken their position anyway. There just doesn't seem to be the need for the cpomb mechanic too. Without it I think we would have far greater diversity than both rulesets. I like plasmoids Change because it would probably do away with po altogether except on the odd player.

From a Box point of view personally I like POMB just as it is. I have not had any trouble with diversity under 1800.
The new C-POMB Box appears to be far more popular than the old LRB4 foul, foul, foul Box. The LRB4 Box could never compete with the Ranked division and was on the slide towards extinction even before the Cyanide game launched.

Maybe I'm just one of those people that the rules were 'dumbed down' for. This whole argument reminds me of arguments about which Alien film is the best. I always used to say that Alien was really a much better movie. But when I look at how many times I have actually watched them both Aliens wins by a mile.

My gut feel is that if you 'fix' C-POMB the number of games played in Box will actually go down. In spite of all the complaints by the 'serious' coaches a lot of people are having a lot of fun. And I'm only using POMB not C-POMB.

But yeah, since the Fumbbl Cup everyone seems to having a go at chaos. That may well drop when people realise that not everyone can win a Major. Or it may just hold when people realise they are having a dang good time.

But if you don't like C-POMB you'll probably find the current Sprint a bit of a nightmare even compared to previous ones.

[voyagers_uk]

early morning theorizing here, so please take with a pinch of salt.


POMB i think would be fine if PO was just reroll AV.

why not just have Claw become something like.... The Claw is so sharp and incisive that the Target AV becomes 7

surely that levels the playing field, I mean if CLAW means that your AV is 7 then AV7 teams can ignore this skill and it become TV bloat on the Bash teams, all teams have equivalent AV due to this skill, then only MB and PO really make a difference and everyone has access to them (alright some only on Doubles)

Bash teams will still take it to clear out AV8-9 teams, but will have the same problem themselves; AV7 teams will just have to worry about POMB, but they have that anyway

[garion]

Okay then dode you find any other rosters that can compete with those in lrb4 with so few skills and remember that in lrb4 tr increased with spp so the more skills single players had the more they cost. You will not be able to. This was reflected in all the majors which were dominated by those races with exactly those builds, and yes there are numbers to back that up.

[dode74]

I didn't say orcs weren't good or popular before, but we're talking about why. In what way do the numbers you propose back up your contention that they were popular because they were easy to build?

[garion]

erm.. for the reasons I just said? They have all the good starter skills, st 4 pieces only need block + guard to be perfectly effective. Troll only needs guard, one goblin who needs no skills, linemen just needed DP, blitzers just needed MB, Guard, Tackle and the thrower only needed block. Av9 stoped them taking many casulties when building a team, and because all their players only need between 1-3 skills so spiralling Cr wasn't a problem. There were no other teams that could build a team in such a quick way taking fewer casulties and needing fewer skills(except maybe zons but they had their own problems). Same goes for dwarves. Its quite simple really???

And the numbers point this out by the sheer number of Orc and Dwarf teams that were built exactly like this for all the majors every year and Orcs especially won an incredible amount of tourneys.

[dode74]

What you have done is propose a hypothesis (people picked orcs because they were easy to build) and a possible mechanism (good starter skills etc) as part of it. You've not actually given any evidence that orcs were easier to build than other teams. To do that you would need to compare net SPP gain per game (possibly categorised into number of skills on the player) of player types under LRB 4 - players with the highest net SPP gain would, I suspect, be the easiest to build, with a team's net SPP gain indicating how easy that team would be to build.
The evidence which you have presented doesn't validate your hypothesis, because tournament wins come from other sources than ease of team building - the team actually being good, for example. Similarly, "lots of teams being made" as evidence is invalidate by the fact that Chaos was actually more popular than Orcs under LRB 4.
Once more, I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but that all you've given is a hypothesis regarding ease of build rather than any evidence which can only be explained by your hypothesis. The cause more/take less cas argument is actually backed up by numbers - statistical evidence that anyone can look at - correlating cas difference with games played.

[Chris]

It might be hard to get the figures for that - you would need ot see how many teams built like that and how did they do. Then possibly see what happens when they meet a claw team in the new edition.

People like bashing in blood bowl. The changes meant rather than the Orcs and Dwarfs having it all their own way like they used to (as it is pretty hard to deny that they were rather good out of the box and didn't need many skills to get better) they could get smashed up by the new claw chaos teams. So the balance shifted. Now when developing your bash team the worse thing that can happen to you is you meet a chaos team that guts you, losing slow to skill players like black orcs. That is your trophy dream finished. And if anything those claw teams are best at hunting other bash teams as tackle is the fifth skill in the stack.

You need good bash skills for the middle teams like humans. Not I think the current situation where there is a disproportionate bashing ability on a couple of teams.

Of course any change, no matter what it is and who you decide to buff/downgrade, is going to lead to less attrition. So you need as has been stated to combine this with things like fouling changes, MVP changes (like random additional MVP for players with less than 6 SPPs) and some other attirition change to push damage up for everyone (so mighty blow becomes +1 & +1 instead of +1/+1, everyone adds the number of advances they have earnt to their injury roll etc).

[garion]

I don't think dode really expects anyone to produce those figures. He just gets some sort of perverse pleasure out of sayinng -
"prove it with statistics" any time anyone says anything without them. It is really getting old tbh. But apparently we are not allowed to discuss BB without statistics even when anybody that played lrb4 can say in no uncertain terms that those two races were both dominant and easy to build. The whole reason Claw was made so accessible in the first place was to stop this. But anyway fortunately plasmoid will just do what he thinks is best anyway without listening to this perpetual need for statistical analysis which goes no where and keeps running threads into the ground.