Alternative Humans

[Xadie]

Would solve the problem in a complete different way...

Starting out with 6x Blockers, Orgre, Catcher or Thrower, 3 Linos, 2 RR. That's some serious stopping power on the pitch right from start.

And I imagine that most coaches would go for a long-term Cockerel of:
6x Blitzers
1x Ogre
2x Linos
either 2x Throwers or 1x Thrower + 1 Catcher
+ Bench Players

Well, it would fix somehow those lousy catchers in that way that you completly put even more the emphasis on a bashing approach instead of a well balanced team that should be able to go bash and agility by design concept.

So at the end of the day they almost become Norse with more armor in exchange of a little bit less block?

EDIT: actually they become the better norse as norse features just 5 players with strength access vs. 7 on the humies. So really that suggestion is out of proportion.
#0-2 7337 80k Catchers is a strong buff (and good one), but not even near the change of going 6x Blitzers. But slowly I find some zestfullness on the idea of strenghten the catchers catch skills and the Thrower skills for pehaps -1AV. So the human coach has two in their expertise capable player groups: Blitzers+Ogre for the Bash, Thrower&Catcher for the Agi Play.
Actually it fits very well the human design concept

[Kort]

I was the one who brought up the idea of 6 Blitzers, but Xadie and mattsgslater have convinced me that this fix will not only help the Humans on the long term, but also at low TV.

Maybe the solution is to add a new 0-2 position to the Human roster. Assuming that it is feasible, those guys would be designed to allow the Humans to hold their own in the Strength game at higher TV. So they would have Strength access, but would not start with Block. Maybe a kind of poor man's Dwarf blocker ?

0-2 Blockers 5 3 3 8 Tackle, Thick Skull GS-AP 70k

This is just a random idea, but this could give the Humans more flexibility at the beginning (but hopefully no more overall efficiency), and 2 durable players that have good long term prospects. Actually, I think someone else brought this idea earlier in the thread, but I am starting to be convinced this could be the way to go.

The Catchers should still get a small boost though, so they could be made to cost 60k instead of 70k. Alternatively, Diving Catch could also be modified to work on a Hand-Off as well. Humans are better off relying on the running game and avoid passing if not necessary. I would be in favor of both changes, especially if the idea of adding a Blocker position is not implemented.

[mattgslater]

They have 11 positionals already.

[mattgslater]

I see your reasons and yes they would work quite better if you use [AV8 Catchers] as a marker. But is that what Humans really need? Shouldn't they have actually someone who fills the catcher roll better?

Uh, 1) they're pretty good at catching; 2) coverage is a lot more important than receiving; 3) MA6 is too slow to play on point.

[plasmoid]

I don't think any team needs 4 catchers. Certainly not developed as catchers.
I mean, how often can you throw?
Plus, there's only one ball to throw

Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

I don't think any team needs 4 catchers. Certainly not developed as catchers.
I mean, how often can you throw?
Plus, there's only one ball to throw

Cheers
Martin

This. What I'd like to see is the Orc dilemma. "There isn't room on the roster for all the good stuff, so <sniff> sorry, Lineman #2! I just can't hire you! " Only instead, it's Catcher #3/4. As, is, it's like, why aren't they 0-2? I do build up to 3 sometimes, but #3 is a benchwarmer. And I don't think I'd do it again; I'd probably go back to starting with none and hiring two as my first two purchases after the Apoth, which is what I used to do. Throwers are worthwhile.

[plasmoid]

I think once they develop, they can push the linemen off.
(Well, except you need linemen, due to your medium AV).
Nobody should purchase 4 from the get go.
But once 2 have been developed as blitzers, you can invest in 2 more, and develop a real reciever and perhaps a nuisance player.

Cheers
Martin

[mattgslater]

14 men at full development. You need 4-5 linemen, unless you build a Catcher with Kick. With 4 Blitzers, 2 Throwers and an Ogre, that's 11-12 players.

[juck101]

I have just caught up reading this topic after a fair few years away.

I agree with Ian that Humans cant bash enough. At high team value they really dont appeal.

Give each player 1 skill on a 12 man side and they do perform well, but shortly after that its all down hill.

So problems- not tough enough, not bash enough, not enough options over the first skill or so. Now compared to orc sides with probably 9 players with strength access I can suggest this reduces the human bash comparatively the longer they team plays. Agility access on the catchers does not make up for the lack of bash later on. I think the AV is ok but they only feel viable to me for one season.

<A tangent when Munkey last played humans we really debated how much the ogre needed block on the side to really bash when they wanted to bash. Getting 4 guard blitzers is a solid foundation but they just seam to lack bite after that point.

It always felt like when tactically he needed to bash, some match ups meant he could not deliver and resorted to ag play>

I think I would offer:
a)
An extra ogre - totally useless starting games but would allow them to have a solid front line in the long term.

b)
Blockers
This team needs more guard than norse and amazon. Ian I think is pointing to the fact that the look-a-like sides actually bash harder. Giving them 2 or 4 blockers would permit the humans to develop more bash. I think with so many positionals already available we could argue to limit the catchers, but orc can have 4 gobos and nobody ever felt they need to reduce this marginal player.

Dunno the stat line, but possibly 6338 - guard 70k would be simple and give them long bash & aid higher value sides.

c)
Boost the catchers.
Maybe the squad lacks strength skills, so give them S access.
Really st3 does seam too many blitzers with movement. Av8 sounds fine but would not entice me on defense ever really.

---------------
I believe me and Munkey talked round and round and round without any consensus. Its a flawed topic I think as norse/amazon are already bashier humans.

[mattgslater]

This was floated earlier and rejected on the grounds that it would require more models, but I'm going to resubmit it anyway. What about making Blitzers and Catchers 0-2 and putting in a Runner off the Blitzer profile, plus a slower, cheaper Blocker? Better-armoured or less dynamically-posed Blitzers (or extra Zugs if you're like me) could be used as Blockers, or lighter/more dynamic Blitzers could be Runners (or heavier-looking Catcher models). This is consistent with the models provided in the Citadel Human team, the Middle Kingdoms team, and most others. Even the out-of-box team is no less unsuited.

I figure Blockers and Runners should both be simple players with simple skills, mediocre as bargains but situationally very useful. Note that a Ghoul on a Human squad (with an Apoth) is better than a Ghoul. They should both be 70k-90k, and should add up to 160k (the value of the players they're replacing).

So 0-2 Blitzers and 0-2 Catchers, plus 0-2 each of the following:
Blockers: 5/3/3/9 Block GS 70k
Runners: 7/3/3/8 Dodge GA 90k

Plus Linemen, Throwers, Ogre, staff and TRRs as normal. So the stock build would probably become 2x Blitzer, 2x Runner, 2x Thrower, 5-6x Line, Apoth, 3-4x TRR.

[Rhyoth]

This was floated earlier and rejected on the grounds that it would require more models, but I'm going to resubmit it anyway. What about making Blitzers and Catchers 0-2 and putting in a Runner off the Blitzer profile, plus a slower, cheaper Blocker? Better-armoured or less dynamically-posed Blitzers (or extra Zugs if you're like me) could be used as Blockers, or lighter/more dynamic Blitzers could be Runners (or heavier-looking Catcher models). This is consistent with the models provided in the Citadel Human team, the Middle Kingdoms team, and most others. Even the out-of-box team is no less unsuited.

I figure Blockers and Runners should both be simple players with simple skills, mediocre as bargains but situationally very useful. Note that a Ghoul on a Human squad (with an Apoth) is better than a Ghoul. They should both be 70k-90k, and should add up to 160k (the value of the players they're replacing).

So 0-2 Blitzers and 0-2 Catchers, plus 0-2 each of the following:
Blockers: 5/3/3/9 Block GS 70k
Runners: 7/3/3/8 Dodge GA 90k

I always liked this idea : it makes the roster more specialized and more customizable, without harming Team's style and symetry.

However, the more i think about it, the more i'm convinced that :
1) Catchers need to be fixed, so they could stand the comparison with Runners, especially with AV 8 runners
(possible fixes : still torn between Sure Feet for free, or price reduced to 60 k)

2) Blockers need a drawback compared to linemen, so give them Ag 2. Also, i'd really like to see them starting with Tackle : that way, Blockers would have more flavor, and would be better, but trickier to play than a "boosted lineman"

3) Runners : although i'm afraid of the power of AV 8 on such a piece (while it does make a lot of sense), i don't see any better design for him, so maybe it's the way to go...

[Patchwork]

1) Catchers need to be fixed, so they could stand the comparison with Runners, especially with AV 8 runners
(possible fixes : still torn between Sure Feet for free, or price reduced to 60 k)

While the Runners could be built into catchers, they are more likely to be turned into wrestle blitzers, espically with blitzers droping to 0-2 and if you drop the Blockers ag to 2. That would be replacing one of the most popular ways of developing Catchers but has the potential to free the Catchers up for out and out scoring or as a mobile dirty player or being completely ignored. Being a 0-2 positional might make them a little less disliked too, no more questioning what you'd do with 4 of them and less of a fragile link in the team with the blockers helping to make the team tougher.

2) Blockers need a drawback compared to linemen, so give them Ag 2. Also, i'd really like to see them starting with Tackle : that way, Blockers would have more flavor, and would be better, but trickier to play than a "boosted lineman"

I like the idea of droping them to ag 2. I don't care for the idea of giving them tackle though. Seems overkill for a piece that would already be really good on a human team.

[Duce]

Maybe drop catchers to 0-2 as mentioned earlier and add in 0-2 blockers

5-3-2-9, Guard, Tackle GS AP 80,000

Slower bulkier guy represented by higher armour, lower movement, guard and tackle help supporting and stopping dodgers.

General and Str access since they can get fighting skill sor stand firm grab etc. and others on doubles as they shouldnt be too easy to make dodgy and passy.

[mattgslater]

I don't think any piece should ever start with Guard. That should have to be earned.

Blocker v2
6/3/2/9 Block GS 70k

Meh... not so keen on AG2 blockers. For one thing, guards pull in American football, which in BB terms theoretically could involve a dodge to the clear (not usually), so a low AG isn't as fluffy as it seems despite "ineligible" status.

[Patchwork]

Meh... not so keen on AG2 blockers. For one thing, guards pull in American football, which in BB terms theoretically could involve a dodge to the clear (not usually), so a low AG isn't as fluffy as it seems despite "ineligible" status.

I have no idea what guards pull means but I liked the idea of the AG2 to make them less like slow but better armored blitzers and not from any sense of realism. If it was a choice between one of MA5 with AG3 or MA6 with AG2, I'm not sure which of the two I'd prefer.