Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[dode74]

@ spubbbba - it's true that HiE, PE and Zons have always been unpopular, and that Khemri were nerfed. I covered that here. The thing is not necessarily to only boost those teams: if the teams which are in the middle were boosted in popularity as well then that would also help improve things.

[plasmoid]

OK, we're straying spectacularly from the subject of NTBB, but what the heck.

Adhansa - the reason I didn't use the doubles method for NTBB is mainly that CRP got rid of traits (doubles skills), and I didn't want to put them back in. The Chaos dominance is most pronounced in perpetual leagues like FUMBBL and Cyanide, and in those leagues where single games don't matter, it is absoluelt no problem to keep building and rebuilding your players to get the doubles you need - before you embark on your true quest for glory.

So - IMO - giving the power to the lucky coaches and the coaches with a lot of time on their hands isn't a good solution.

Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

Curious if you/DoubleSkulls have had any thoughts on my Horns comment: viewtopic.php?p=632132#p632132
The more I think about it the more I am wondering why we take getting the POW as a given when assessing CPOMB...

[plasmoid]

Hi Nick_nameless,

So, which is the point of the thread...to increase variety of teams or to create some tweaks that bring some over powered and under powered stuff back in line?

Both, hopefully
My thinking is that something underpowered will not get played. And something overpowered will get played more - potentially squeezing out other tactics and teams if the situation is extreme enough. In my analysis, the propensity for going with CPOMB teams is that they universally apply a broken'ish combo, and are at the same time reasonably resistant to said broken'ish combo.

So if POMB against AV7 gets toned down, I think the meta-game will become more diverse.
IMO, POMB against AV8 is tolerable, and against AV9 it's fine. But against AV7 it is simply too effective. And Claw makes everything AV7.

So really, I'm just looking for a skill tweak that will make POMB less potent against AV7.
With that in place, I hope the rest of my tweaks will have much more of an effect.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Dode,
really I'm just trying to go to the source.
Sure Horns adds potential for POWs. So does Guard. And Tackle, and Frenzy. And Pro.
See where this is going

[dode74]

None of which are mass starting skills for players with easy CPOMB access.

Maybe better for another thread

[spubbbba]

@ spubbbba - it's true that HiE, PE and Zons have always been unpopular, and that Khemri were nerfed. I covered that here. The thing is not necessarily to only boost those teams: if the teams which are in the middle were boosted in popularity as well then that would also help improve things.

Yeah, I saw that but you were mostly talking about how the rules impact those races’ popularity and I’m of the opinion that there are other factors that make those specific teams unpopular.

For instance Dark Elves are just cooler than High Elves, the teams were more similar in earlier editions and even had they been identical then I think Dark Elves would have been played more. The fluff of them being evil and sadistically brutal is more appealing than being stuck up sissies afraid to get their uniforms dirty.
Pro Elves suffered a bit as they were the newest team, though if they were identical to Wood Elves ruleswise and had the awesome 2nd edition models compared to the terrible 3rd edition Wood Elf models then hockey masks and Mohawks might beat tights and tree-hugging. Khemri compare badly to undead as the Undead can have mummies and wights (better versions of tomb guardians and blitz-ras), identical skeletons but have the option of zombies and ghouls over thro-ras. Not to mention the coolness factor of being able to raise free zombies from opposing players. So even were Khemri were as good if not better than Undead, as some lrb5 stats seemed to prove (though I disagree with those) Undead were still more appealing to use.

I do think hybrid teams could do with a boost as they make for more interesting games. Bash vs bash and elfball is often dull, but hybrid vs hybrid games are more likely to be interesting as you can have both dramatic game winning plays and bloody massacres. The trouble is that hybrid teams always struggle at higher TV. They can’t kill elves quickly enough to gain a numerical advantage and often find it harder to survive against bashers than elves since they lack AG4 and easy access to dodge.

[nick_nameless]

Hi Nick_nameless,
So if POMB against AV7 gets toned down, I think the meta-game will become more diverse.
IMO, POMB against AV8 is tolerable, and against AV9 it's fine. But against AV7 it is simply too effective. And Claw makes everything AV7.

So really, I'm just looking for a skill tweak that will make POMB less potent against AV7.
With that in place, I hope the rest of my tweaks will have much more of an effect.

So, while the same or similar suggestions to the one I have made may or may not have been posted up, I think that my suggestion is exactly that....a skill tweak that downgrades the effectiveness of ClawPOMB and POMB. Do you not think so?

Also I think my suggestion follows the most important KISS rule.

[koadah]

So really, I'm just looking for a skill tweak that will make POMB less potent against AV7.
With that in place, I hope the rest of my tweaks will have much more of an effect.

Roll your AV to negate the piling on.

Clunky and horrible fluff wise but kinda does the job.

the lighter armour makes it easier to roll out of the way. Yeah, weak I know.

[Kort]

I do think hybrid teams could do with a boost as they make for more interesting games. Bash vs bash and elfball is often dull, but hybrid vs hybrid games are more likely to be interesting as you can have both dramatic game winning plays and bloody massacres. The trouble is that hybrid teams always struggle at higher TV. They can’t kill elves quickly enough to gain a numerical advantage and often find it harder to survive against bashers than elves since they lack AG4 and easy access to dodge.

Agrred. I also think this is the main problem with Blood Bowl.

[dode74]

The top 5 teams by win% in FOL are Undead, Amazons, Lizards, Dwarves and Skaven. On FUMBBL it's Amazons, Lizards, Wood Elves, Skaven, Undead. In OCC it's HE, Elves, DE, Necro, Undead. I think hybrids are doing fine.

As for high TV, even in FUMBBL B only 14% of games take place above 1800TV. I don't have figures for OCC but I can get them.

Edit: since season 4 of OCC 21% of games have involved at least one team with a TV of >1800, 10% at >2000.

[Chris]

I am in the hard done by Hybrid camp - but it does raise the question of waht are the hybrid teams. I wouldn't for example put Skaven in there, but I can see why some would.

[nick_nameless]

I am in the hard done by Hybrid camp - but it does raise the question of waht are the hybrid teams. I wouldn't for example put Skaven in there, but I can see why some would.

Necromantic, Lizardmen, Underworld, Vampire to name a few.

[Rhyoth]

@ plasmoid & dode : About Piling On :
I don't see why you dislike Doubleskulls' suggestion (only one damaging skill used by roll) : simple and effective, with no hidden buff, i think it address high TV issues nicely (while the impact for early games is minimal) :
it's a slight nerf for Claw+MB, moderate for PO+MB, and huge for CPOMB : and, on top of that, it increases the chances of a POner to go prone and gain nothing in return !

Also, i would be very cautious before calling it a nerf (even relative) to AV 7 : those teams will still perform better against POMB than they do now !
Sure PO will be used more often on AV rolls, but, using PiOn will give your opponent an advantage (going prone), and you will give it for free 58% of the time ! (against 42% with the current rules)

note : yeah, i consider going prone a disadvantage, if not for the player, at least for the team :
_ you need to back up your prone player and protect him from a foul
_ you're down by one TZ, so it's easier for your opponent to hit the rest of your team, or simply outrun you
_ it also means 1 less potential block next turn (not to mention the MA penalty)

Now, if i had to predict the impact of that changes, i'd say :
1) Chaotic teams won't focus so much on CPOMB, instead they will have more player with 2 damaging skills + another skill
2) Dwarves and Orcs will still struggle against chaotic teams, plus they will deal less damages than now.
3) since POMB and CPOMB won't affect them so much, some AV 8 teams will become more popular, especially if my first point is verified

So, considering all this, do you really think this change would be bad for low AV teams ?


In comparaison, i think nerfing PO directly is a bad idea : it 's already a poor skill on its own (at least compared to Mighty Blow**), i don't see the point of making it even worse.
** the potential lethality for one hit is not the only factor to consider here

About PiOn being a weaker MB : i see one big flaw here : POners will stay on their feet much more often, and worse than that, they will always get paid for going prone. I see two cases where that changes might backfires :
_ with the current rules, it's always tricky to use PO with a Wild Animal, since it's not easy to stand them up, with your rules, it is now a no-brainer choice
_ also, with this rule, it will be more convenient to pick PO "en masse", even for a slow team like Dwarves (currently this tactic is more problematic : using PO too often may leave you wide open, especially if you fail some AV rolls).
So, basically, even though you reduced the lethality of PO there is a risk to see even more player with PO than before. Of course, this risk is hypothetical, but "Anything that can go wrong ..."

About PiOn on AV only : I share Ian's concerns on this one : there is no need to screw even more Dwarves & Orcs against Chaos. I think it would be much better to simply erase Piling On from the rulebook (but i don't mean it would be a good change either) : it would have a comparable effect, but at least you wouldn't give an unnecessary edge to Chaos over every AV 8+ teams.

On top of that, there are so many ways to nerf PiOn indirectly (on top of improving fouling) :

_ since PiOn is really dreadfull only when combined with MB and/or Claw, if you nerf those 2 skills (or just MB), you will nerf PiOn as well, without even changing it !

_ you can add another condition to use PO, for example :
"using PiOn during a Blitz Action cost you another square of mouvement"
So, it will be harder to Blitz/Go prone/Stand up/re-Blitz/re-Go prone... every turn ; Also, i bet this change won't affect Human Blitzers as much as Dwarves or BoB...

_ unlike MB or Claw, Piling On can be countered by Fend, so you just have to make Fend more common :
- either by giving Fend a small boost
- or since you're re-drawing the rosters, give Fend as a starting skills to several players*** (that way, you can focus your attention on teams who really need help, without giving an unnecessary buff to woodies)
*** it would be easy to give it to Amazons, Humans and Pro Elves Catchers for example, but you may also consider it for Norse Runners, Ghouls, Thralls ...


That being said, while i do think limiting the number of Casualties at high TV is a necessity, it won't solve everything : even if C PO MB were completely erased, Dwarves would still be better and more popular on the long run than Norse, for example.
So, since no matter how much you nerf PiOn (or MB/Claw), the result will never be satisfying, and since there is a risk to give Elves and such too much in-game advantages, imho, it's better to go for the safer choice for now : Ian's suggestion.
Then, i would try to attack your problem from a different angle : Apothecaries or SPP distribution for exemple.

[dode74]

Chris -
For me:
Bash: Orc, Dwarf, Chaos, Nurgle, Khemri, Norse
Agi: 4 Elven teams, Skaven
Hybrid: the rest.

Rhyoth -
Like DoubleSkulls, I think you are concentrating too much on the high-TV record of Orcs/Dwarves vs claw teams. The change he proposes to PiOn is a relative nerf to AV7, as the math shows. I do agree that there will need to be mitigation in favour of the higher AV teams in some manner, though.

About PiOn being a weaker MB : i see one big flaw here : POners will stay on their feet much more often, and worse than that, they will always get paid for going prone.

I think you should need to declare this version before use, personally, and have said as much before.

About PiOn on AV only : I share Ian's concerns on this one : there is no need to screw even more Dwarves & Orcs against Chaos. I think it would be much better to simply erase Piling On from the rulebook (but i don't mean it would be a good change either) : it would have a comparable effect, but at least you wouldn't give an unnecessary edge to Chaos over every AV 8+ teams.

I don't see how this screws high AV teams more?

My own suggestion was simply to prevent MB being used on the PO roll. It makes PO less effective against everyone while maintaining the relative casualty rates of the various AVs, which is necessary to maintain attrition.

That being said, while i do think limiting the number of Casualties at high TV is a necessity, it won't solve everything : even if C PO MB were completely erased, Dwarves would still be better and more popular on the long run than Norse, for example.

Actually I think you need to keep the cas count high to prevent unfettered develpment: players are meant to die, and it is supposed to happen more at high TV. Teams will never be equal in popularity, but they can be more even.