Narrow Tiers and Galaks Wish List

[Tourach]

I don't think darkelves is a problem...

[theghr]

I don't think darkelves is a problem...

What do you mean, they have super good stats at higher TV.

[Tourach]

on fumbbl ... well yes DE is better than HE and have av 8 on most players, so i guess they do better than the other squishier elves.
But i don't believe them to be broken, but surely a tier 1 team.

[theghr]

on fumbbl ... well yes DE is better than HE and have av 8 on most players, so i guess they do better than the other squishier elves.
But i don't believe them to be broken, but surely a tier 1 team.

Not only better than other elves, better than all other too! I go by these stats: http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/b ... stats.html You probably know about them but i'm talking about how they evolve in the longrun. Of course there are a few other teams as well that may need be slowed down.

[koadah]

on fumbbl ... well yes DE is better than HE and have av 8 on most players, so i guess they do better than the other squishier elves.
But i don't believe them to be broken, but surely a tier 1 team.

Not only better than other elves, better than all other too! I go by these stats: http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/b ... stats.html You probably know about them but i'm talking about how they evolve in the longrun. Of course there are a few other teams as well that may need be slowed down.

Lies, damned lies and all that.

Are these the pages?
http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/b ... stats.html

http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/b ... srace.html

Surely it's wood elves who are the broken ones.

The data doesn't necessarily show that DEs are broken. Many coaches would struggle to have any success with DEs and struggle to keep them alive.

It could well be that in your league the DE coaches are just the stronger coaches.

DEs are dang good though.

[Juriel]

Of course DE are too strong, they're elves. Everything's easy for them.

Unless you're Pro Elves.

[garion]

Unless you're Pro Elves.

Pish, Pro Elves are amazing, just as good as the others. For me High Elves are the worst of the elf teams but even then it is marginal. They are all much of a muchness really.

[Rhyoth]

koadah, remember there are 3 degrees of lies :
1) simple lie
2) oath-breaking
3) statistics

So beware of raw statistics (and numbers in general), it's easy (but often unconclusive) to make them tell what you want (for example, just try to see which team has the better win% for games played at TV 1500+ ).

[plasmoid]

Hi Koadah,
sorry for the slow reply - I hope you're still reading.

Eh? A lot of people like them now. You'll have to consider that if you want support for your rules.

Well, an awful lot of players consider them too powerful in the early stages of development.
I'm not making a change to make them more interesting.
I'm doing it to weaken them short term.

So, if anyone is liking them for being that powerful, then that's none of my concern.
But if anyone likes them for being the all dodge cookie cutter team then fine - that's the very reason I'm not trying for a big inventive overhaul.
If I searched TFF I think I could find 30 suggested amazon rosters. And I'm guessing none of them could get any kind of a unified backing. That's why I'm sticking with the established team, and making the nerf as small as possible.

If you give the whole team A access then that becomes their defining trait.

I'm not looking to give them a new one. I'm holding on to all-dodge.
But they can have a secondary one. They share it with the elf teams, but I don't see a problem here.

Without block they're not going to do as much damage early so with AV7 are more likely to end up sort handed.

And early is where they're overly powerful. Not that they get easily outnumbered with all that dodge.
They used to be 4 blodgers and eventually developed a lot of wrodge linemen.
I suppose now it'll be the other way around.
True, wrestle isn't a good match for guard or mighty blow. That's the nerf part.
But if you can't help yourself, a blitzer or 2 can suck it up and take block - they'll still have wrestle as a decent utility/option-skill.
And on the other hand, some linechicks with blodge and Step down the line are gonna be sweet.

Cheers
Martin

[Chris]

So then would a succesful long term amazon roster actually dispense with the maximum 4 blitzers due to lack of skill synergy or is it still TV effecient to 'waste' a skill slot on them to get block?

[Hitonagashi]

So then would a succesful long term amazon roster actually dispense with the maximum 4 blitzers due to lack of skill synergy or is it still TV effecient to 'waste' a skill slot on them to get block?

Naw, you'd probably take the blitzers...S access is a biggy still. I'd say with wrodge, all 4 blitzers would be going mb/po/tackle/frenzy, as it's probably better than guard on a wrestler. Tough call though.

[dines]

So then would a succesful long term amazon roster actually dispense with the maximum 4 blitzers due to lack of skill synergy or is it still TV effecient to 'waste' a skill slot on them to get block?

Naw, you'd probably take the blitzers...S access is a biggy still. I'd say with wrodge, all 4 blitzers would be going mb/po/tackle/frenzy, as it's probably better than guard on a wrestler. Tough call though.

If you go in that direction, then you really need those doubles on linewomen or add in dauntless. All st3 and no guard isn't that great.

[theghr]

koadah, remember there are 3 degrees of lies :
1) simple lie
2) oath-breaking
3) statistics

So beware of raw statistics (and numbers in general), it's easy (but often unconclusive) to make them tell what you want (for example, just try to see which team has the better win% for games played at TV 1500+ ).

At the same time i think it's many times too easy to dismiss statistics by simply using a phrase like yours.

The data doesn't necessarily show that DEs are broken. Many coaches would struggle to have any success with DEs and struggle to keep them alive.

It could well be that in your league the DE coaches are just the stronger coaches.

How "many" is many? When the stats tells such a compelling story?

[dode74]

I don't really trust B stats for assessing racial balance - the house ruled TV limitations as to who you can play changes the dynamic of the game. I much prefer league stats. The only stats I have for a long-running league show all the races to be pretty much in the bracket once you factor in margins of error for population size.

[spubbbba]

Something that is not factored into the statistics is the standard of the coaches and that people play for all sorts of different reasons. All the ones I have seen focus on win %.

Not everyone will do their utmost to win every game they play, in fact in a league this can be a bad overall strategy. Some players only want to cause casualties, others to team build, just focus on 1 star player, tell a story with the team or many other reasons. Even in a resurrection style tabletop tournament there will often be awards for most cas, TD’s, wooden spoon or something else, so if a player has no chance of being in the top tables they may aim for one of these titles over winning every remaining game.

So maybe if in a league where everyone tried their utmost to win every game then Chaos would actually have a 75% win rate, it is just that attract killer coaches who ignore the ball. Equally Wood Elves could have a 40% as they are harder to play long term and tend to attract the best coaches.

I think the most interesting examples are Orcs and Humans. Both of those teams ar every popular but usually have pretty low win rates. The general consensus I see is that Orcs are a very good team at low to mid TV but just average at high TV, whilst humans are mediocre to start with and end up being quite weak at mid to high TV. A common explanation for the poor performance of Orcs is that they are favoured by new players since you get Orcs in the boxed set, they are easy to use and they are a popular 40K and Fantasy race so easy to convert for TT.