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Taking away dodge makes the S access players more vulnerable. With AV7 it should be a lot easier to get rid of them as many teams will not have tackle early on.plasmoid wrote:...
Compelling? How? They have a good win% so why isn't everyone using them?theghr wrote:How "many" is many? When the stats tells such a compelling story?The data doesn't necessarily show that DEs are broken. Many coaches would struggle to have any success with DEs and struggle to keep them alive.
It could well be that in your league the DE coaches are just the stronger coaches.
As Dode has shown, in that format at least, win% is a poor guide to popularity.koadah wrote:They have a good win% so why isn't everyone using them?
I played dark elves in a TT league and had the same experience. I won most of my games, but most of the other teams were bash and therefore competing in getting a guard advantage rather than tackle to stop me... And out of the 10 players in the league there is only 2 coaches around my level, the rest is worse.koadah wrote:Compelling? How? They have a good win% so why isn't everyone using them?theghr wrote:How "many" is many? When the stats tells such a compelling story?The data doesn't necessarily show that DEs are broken. Many coaches would struggle to have any success with DEs and struggle to keep them alive.
It could well be that in your league the DE coaches are just the stronger coaches.
DEs only average 8.96 games per team compared to 16.89 for chaos. Only the tier 2/3 teams and other elves have fewer.
In that league it the C-POMB teams that dominate. Generally IMO many teams don't take enough tackle which helps the elves.
Yes. Lies, damned lies...
But I don't want to get rid of dodge.Taking away dodge makes the S access players more vulnerable. With AV7 it should be a lot easier to get rid of them as many teams will not have tackle early on.
I wouldn't either. But I might do it on one or 2 hitters. Or just go with frenzy as the source of more knockdowns.I don't fancy wrestle on the S access players. I wouldn't want block & wrestle on 4 of them.
Yes, they can, and currently they do: Start with blodgers, build some wrodgers.Any of the linos can take wrestle especially the line fodder.
Yes, I think I would - though in all fairness that's hardly conclusiveWrestle makes them bit of a wuss team IMO. Would you use them?
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No, it isn't. It's that you're turning them into a wuss team that I wouldn't really want to use.plasmoid wrote: Either way, I get to ask a question too, right?
Is it really your contention that a skill tweak changing the result of bothdown on the block dice (block => wrestle) will take the team from the top of tier 1 (possibly above tier 1) all the way down, past the middle, into the bottom of tier 1 or perhaps even into tier 2.
I suppose only playtesting can tell for sure, but I personally find that quite hard to believe.
Cheers
Martin
Heh, how the hell should I know?So, I suppose my real question is how many people would actually use them?
Yeah, they're so good that I hear my team is the only zon team in the Crown of Sand.plasmoid wrote:Heh, how the hell should I know?So, I suppose my real question is how many people would actually use them?
But I'm guessing a lot of the people they appealed to before, minus those that only played them because they were too good, but plus those coaches that liked them but would have felt dirty for playing them
I'm sorry for my cpr not being able to quote allright, but this is interesting. Dark Elves has a total of 233 in total basic stats when counting the top 11 players from bottom to the top of their roster. Norse has 213. What happens when the teams are maxed out you say?Something that is not factored into the statistics is the standard of the coaches and that people play for all sorts of different reasons. All the ones I have seen focus on win %.
Not everyone will do their utmost to win every game they play, in fact in a league this can be a bad overall strategy. Some players only want to cause casualties, others to team build, just focus on 1 star player, tell a story with the team or many other reasons. Even in a resurrection style tabletop tournament there will often be awards for most cas, TD’s, wooden spoon or something else, so if a player has no chance of being in the top tables they may aim for one of these titles over winning every remaining game.
So maybe if in a league where everyone tried their utmost to win every game then Chaos would actually have a 75% win rate, it is just that attract killer coaches who ignore the ball. Equally Wood Elves could have a 40% as they are harder to play long term and tend to attract the best coaches.
I think the most interesting examples are Orcs and Humans. Both of those teams ar every popular but usually have pretty low win rates. The general consensus I see is that Orcs are a very good team at low to mid TV but just average at high TV, whilst humans are mediocre to start with and end up being quite weak at mid to high TV. A common explanation for the poor performance of Orcs is that they are favoured by new players since you get Orcs in the boxed set, they are easy to use and they are a popular 40K and Fantasy race so easy to convert for TT.
Well, they still has that statistic advantage, not counting skills of course. So is the skills DE have to choose from so much worse than Norses? DE generally has GA and SP, while Norses has GX and AX. I'm asking experienced coaches if Norses skills makes up for the Dark Elves better stats.
Only in the very beginning do skills make up for better stats. And this drops off FAST as the better-stat players start getting their own skills.I'm asking experienced coaches if Norses skills makes up for the Dark Elves better stats.
The Bank and SE changes are to prevent teams to go to 250+ TV.I am minorly concerned that high level bash teams might be a bit overly nerfed (pion nerf, fouling boost, spiraling expenses change, bank change...)
It's quite simple really. Maybe I should look at the wording.Speaking of fear of change, the bank rule seems a bit confusing to me... It may just be because I don't grasp thing too well until I see them in practice, but I'm a big fan of keeping things as simple as possible.
Hehe.. indeed.I really like the sneaky bit change... Can't wait to give it to my goblins!
I was aiming at the available skills to choose from, if those make up for the 20 more in basic stats that the DE hold over Norses and many others too i might say. That is about 2 points higher stats per starting player. Maybe that's the way to go, to change all DE players basic strenght to 2, save for blitzers perhaps. Just so that we aint gonna have one coach who wins nearly all tourneys. Or maybe it's more fitting to make Norses stronger than 3, they should be anyhow as far as i'm concerned. At the end of the day i'm just looking for balance here.Only in the very beginning do skills make up for better stats. And this drops off FAST as the better-stat players start getting their own skills.
You seem to have a real grudge against elves...theghr wrote:I was aiming at the available skills to choose from, if those make up for the 20 more in basic stats that the DE hold over Norses and many others too i might say. That is about 2 points higher stats per starting player. Maybe that's the way to go, to change all DE players basic strenght to 2, save for blitzers perhaps. Just so that we aint gonna have one coach who wins nearly all tourneys. Or maybe it's more fitting to make Norses stronger than 3, they should be anyhow as far as i'm concerned. At the end of the day i'm just looking for balance here.Only in the very beginning do skills make up for better stats. And this drops off FAST as the better-stat players start getting their own skills.