Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[koadah]

What I originally reacted was the claim, made several places - based on stats I thought - that roughly half the games in the box involved CPOMB teams.

@ Koadah
From data taken just now,
Chaos + CD + Pact + Nurgle = 15373 + 12964 + 9716 + 10927 = 48980
Total games = 148950
Percentage = 32.88%
Include Necro (8363) and Norse (7447) to cover all the claw teams and you get 64790, or 43.5% of games.

That's not including mirrors. Include them and you get 33.8%.

Ah, but that is teams. There are two teams in each game.

I meant check it with your own data.

[plasmoid]

Hey Chris,
didn't mean to ignore you

I remain concerned on the effect on hybrid teams. Take humans - playing elves I really rely on outbashing them.

Well, as I just told Ryoth, Elves will get their own problems with Bank and SE. But I'd also recommend new and improved fouling. And Guard. Guard rocks. 2-1 grind all the way .

Is that not a fair bit of change to the base stats relationship?

Fair being the operative word

10/20 does keep that relationship somewhat - If you wanted to keep 10% as the AV9 number you would be looking for 24.6% at AV7.
[Snip]
But do we want a linear relationship like that?

I absolutely think that it is prudent to bend the curve a little. 24.6% is (IMO) past the breaking point (CRP has 26.something), both in individual games as well as in the perspective of team survival.
But, also very important in shaving a bit off the top is: When we throw Claw in there, then AV9 jumps to where AV7 is - and I think that jump shouldn't be as massive as that.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Right - before I go to bed - I posted these stats earlier today for a rewritten Piling On:
Remember, the stats are 'KO+/Cas'
PO: AV9 13.3/6.0 AV8 17.9/7.9 AV7 (or claw) 23.4/10.4
POMB: AV9 22.2/11.2 AV8 29.1/14.7 AV7 (or claw) 38.2/19.2
I think those look pretty darn good, but it seems nobody else cared enough to react.

Here's the skill anyway:
Piling On (S): When this player throws a block, knocks down his opponent, remains adjacent to him, and rolls a doubles on the armor roll - you may chose to have him Pile On - place your player prone. If the doubles roll would not normally have broken armor, then you do - roll for injury as normal. If your doubles roll would have broken armor anyway, then add +2 to the injury roll.

Cheers
Martin

[dode74]

Ah, but that is teams. There are two teams in each game.

No, that is games played.

Martin - that is a very nice approach imo, but I'm not sure if it would be seen as "too complex".

[koadah]

Ah, but that is teams. There are two teams in each game.

No, that is games played.

OK. So 148950 is the number of games played. Not the total of all games played by each race which would be double?

[koadah]

Right - before I go to bed - I posted these stats earlier today for a rewritten Piling On:
Remember, the stats are 'KO+/Cas'
PO: AV9 13.3/6.0 AV8 17.9/7.9 AV7 (or claw) 23.4/10.4
POMB: AV9 22.2/11.2 AV8 29.1/14.7 AV7 (or claw) 38.2/19.2
I think those look pretty darn good, but it seems nobody else cared enough to react.

Here's the skill anyway:
Piling On (S): When this player throws a block, knocks down his opponent, remains adjacent to him, and rolls a doubles on the armor roll - you may chose to have him Pile On - place your player prone. If the doubles roll would not normally have broken armor, then you do - roll for injury as normal. If your doubles roll would have broken armor anyway, then add +2 to the injury roll.

Cheers
Martin

You can only pile on on 1/6? Don't like it at all.

[dode74]

OK. So 148950 is the number of games played. Not the total of all games played by each race which would be double?

Fair point - I just took it straight from your site, which I realise I shouldn't have. I've not gone through a game-by-game of the FUMBBL data though. The problem is that without doing that I don't know how many games didn't have one of those races in it, so I can't give you a percentage.

You can only pile on on 1/6? Don't like it at all.

You can only sneaky git 1/6. There's an element of chance of being able to use many of the skills: tentacles, dauntless, DT, shadowing, thick skull and even mighty blow (not used unless you roll either exactly or more than the AV of the target).

[koadah]

[quote="dode74"

You can only pile on on 1/6? Don't like it at all.

You can only sneaky git 1/6. There's an element of chance of being able to use many of the skills: tentacles, dauntless, DT, shadowing, thick skull and even mighty blow (not used unless you roll either exactly or more than the AV of the target).[/quote]

I think that makes it pretty useless.

Making the defender roll their AV (+/- n )to avoid is cumbersome but helps low AV vs high and the skill would still be worth taking.

[Hitonagashi]

Hi Dode,

Chaos was more popular on FUMBBL under LRB4 than it is under CRP.

Yeah, I was being sloppy with the wording.
I meant claw-strength teams in high-TV play.

I tried to mess around with Koadahs(?) datawebsite for black box. Manu.something.something. And it just got confusing. Trying to find the high-TV games isn't easy. What if one team is high and the other is low. Raising the 'higher TV' just means that more games are included. Raising the 'lower TV' just cuts away a lot of games with teams that can't go that high (or often have MNGs).
Not to mention the fact that those 2 TV systems were very different.

What I originally reacted was the claim, made several places - based on stats I thought - that roughly half the games in the box involved CPOMB teams.

Does this mean that the thousand pages of whining about CPOMB in the past year have all been totally groundless?
My experience tells me they haven't been.
But what the Duck do I know

If that's the case, I've been extremely unlucky

My Lanterns played 74/126 games against claw counting norse and necro, and 58/126 not counting them.

Without actually calculating it, I'd guess that the vast majority of those are over 1700. Sub 1500, there's actually really good variety in the box.

If you look at my fairly recent high TV sprint, out of 16, games, 1 was against a non M access team (orcs!), and only one was against skaven (so the softer versions). I don't think I dropped much below 1700 for all those games...take it from me, playing 14 clawmbpo teams out of 16 games hurts a team...it's what happens if you don't park a high TV team in the Box.

[Tourach]

Looking at the stats, I guess that pion is fine.
Fun fact that you need to follow up for 1/6-chance of using it.
You could get a whooping +3 on damage with MB.
Against av 10 you almost trippel the chances of breaking armor.
Against av9 you go from 6/36 to 10/36 to break armor, same as mighty blow...
I think I like this piling on... but of course I am a plasmoid fanboy!

[spubbbba]

This thread was a lot more interesting before it became just another ClawPOMB thread..

Agreed it does tend to kill off otherwise interesting discussions quicker than the combo removes player from the pitch, maybe we need a special clawpomb sub thread in the forum?

[DoubleSkulls]

I was going to suggest that splitting a Narrow Tier CLPOMB thread would be a good idea, but even the volume of posts in this already on the subject it probably makes sense to move the other discussions into a separate thread and retitle this one.

[koadah]

If you look at my fairly recent high TV sprint, out of 16, games, 1 was against a non M access team (orcs!), and only one was against skaven (so the softer versions). I don't think I dropped much below 1700 for all those games...take it from me, playing 14 clawmbpo teams out of 16 games hurts a team...it's what happens if you don't park a high TV team in the Box.

A dull schedule but you did go 11/2/3 and did not get completely destroyed. Doesn't that sound like a league issue?

[koadah]

I was going to suggest that splitting a Narrow Tier CLPOMB thread would be a good idea, but even the volume of posts in this already on the subject it probably makes sense to move the other discussions into a separate thread and retitle this one.

Cool, be sure to invite Cbbakke

[DoubleSkulls]

*I don't think the CAS-rate should drop below 10% against AV9 when POMBing.
This to my mind kills 'PO is RR on INJ & MB doesn't stack'
*I also don't think the CAS-rate should be above 20 when POMBing AV7 (or CPOMBing)
My own original PO=+1/+1 falls to this, because the CASrate against AV7 is 24 or so.

If you make Piling On an Injury reroll only, and don't let Claw stack with Mighty Blow. then you get these numbers. 0.5% not bloody enough against Av9, and 0.8% too bloody against Av7.

Code: Select all

PO Inj Reroll, No stacking Claw & MB   (CLPOMB)
Av   St       KO       Cas      Score
9     7.2%    18.0%    16.4%    25.4%   
8     7.2%    18.0%    16.4%    25.4%   
7    12.9%    24.6%    20.8%    33.1%   
PO Inj Reroll, No stacking Claw & MB   (CLMB)
Av   St       KO       Cas      Score
9    17.4%    12.7%    11.6%    17.9%   
8    17.4%    12.7%    11.6%    17.9%   
7    27.1%    16.9%    14.4%    22.8%   
PO Inj Reroll, No stacking Claw & MB   (POMB)
Av   St       KO       Cas      Score
9     6.7%    11.6%     9.5%    15.3%   
8     9.5%    17.5%    14.6%    23.4%   
7    12.9%    24.6%    20.8%    33.1%  

I think the skill progression from nothing - MB - CLMB/POMB - CLPOMB works too as its pretty linear (6.9% chance of a cas against Av7 normally, to 14.4%, 20.8%) so gaining around the same amount for each additional skill, and its slightly better than linear against Av9.

Its a pretty simple rules change too. So the rewording would just be Claw becomes reworded after to before:

Claw / Claws (Mutation)
A player with this skill is blessed with a huge crab-like claw or razor sharp talons that make armour useless. When an opponent is Knocked Down by this player during a block, any Armour roll of 8 or more before modifications automatically breaks armour.

And Piling On is just removing "Armour roll or " so becomes

Piling On (Strength)
The player may use this skill after he has made a block as part of one of his Block or Blitz Actions, but only if the Piling On player is currently standing adjacent to the victim and the victim was Knocked Down. You may re-roll the Injury roll for the victim. The Piling On player is Placed Prone in his own square -- it is assumed that he rolls back there after flattening his opponent (do not make an Armour roll for him as he has been cushioned by the other player!). Piling On does not cause a turnover unless the Piling On player is carrying the ball. Piling On cannot be used with the Stab or Chainsaw skills.