Galak's LRB7 test rules coming to FUMMBL

[garion]

No, not thousands of games of CRP, but certainly over a thousand games from LRB4 on, and passing hasn't changed so much, the fact that passing is largley ignored by most of the best players also hasnt changed from that rule set to this.

In fact in my experience passing seems to have become even more rare now than it was in lrb4. Possibly for a few reasons - throwers are generally only used as leader caddys now . The fact TV is based on skills obtained now means people are less likely to bother with passing skills at all because they just aren't good value for TV anymore. When TR was used I saw far more people take accurate and Strong arm on doubles than I do now. Not that TR was better mind (it still had BIG problems), but it didn't punish people for taking interesting skill choices.

[dode74]

I don't think that passing rewards the risk sufficiently, as described here -> viewtopic.php?p=615154#p615154

SPP to the thrower is all well and good, but passing skills might be taken more often if they helped distribute SPP to another player. That sounds wierd until you consider that there are two players involved in a pass, so perhaps 1SPP for the thrower and 1SPP for the catcher in the event of an accurate pass being successfully caught might encourage passing. It also makes sense - the successful pass isn't only down to the thrower.

[plasmoid]

Hi Garion,
well, I think FUMBBL is an overly TV-obsessive environment.
I've certainly seen plenty of throwers around in the MBBL - na dnot just leader caddies.

Either way, Smuf commented on an LRB5+ change to safe throw - which is why I figured it wouldn't be reflected in your LRB4 experience. Even if he is a bit optimistic on that account. But safe throw change and new diving catch certainly makes passing more viable.

Cheers
Martin

[koadah]

I don't think that passing rewards the risk sufficiently, as described here -> viewtopic.php?p=615154#p615154

SPP to the thrower is all well and good, but passing skills might be taken more often if they helped distribute SPP to another player. That sounds wierd until you consider that there are two players involved in a pass, so perhaps 1SPP for the thrower and 1SPP for the catcher in the event of an accurate pass being successfully caught might encourage passing. It also makes sense - the successful pass isn't only down to the thrower.

The catcher is often the player who scores so that would be 4SPPs for a single score. Plus 1 for the thrower.

Anyway, the real reward is winning the game. Foul up the pass and you could be in all sorts of trouble.

Personally I like a thrower especially if they come with sure hands. I won't be planning to pass unless I'm elves but the old roll out quick/short pass is often the game winner.

[dode74]

The catcher is often the player who scores so that would be 4SPPs for a single score. Plus 1 for the thrower.

That's less of an argument and more of a description of one possible scenario

Anyway, the real reward is winning the game. Foul up the pass and you could be in all sorts of trouble.

Let's forget SPP altogether then, eh? I thought that SPP were there (fluffwise) to award players for their acheivements as a part of winning the game. Catching the pass, whether it ends up in a TD or not, is an acheivement.

Again, though, I refer back to the risk/reward thing. Very high risk for a pass which, if it doesn't end up in a TD, has very limited rewards.

[koadah]

The catcher is often the player who scores so that would be 4SPPs for a single score. Plus 1 for the thrower.

That's less of an argument and more of a description of one possible scenario

Ah, I didn't think a sharp bloke like yourself would need more than that.

Anyway, the real reward is winning the game. Foul up the pass and you could be in all sorts of trouble.

Let's forget SPP altogether then, eh?

Yes I agree. The only players in the game should be rookie human linemen. That would make balancing much easier.

Again, though, I refer back to the risk/reward thing. Very high risk for a pass which, if it doesn't end up in a TD, has very limited rewards.

Passing for the sake of passing is a nice way to farm elves. The extra SP doesn't make it worth it in normal play only in farming mode.

[Smurf]

How is passing a risk and not blocking?

AG3 ST3 Block and Pass:

Blocking - 1/3 failure, 1/3 pushback, 1/3 knock down
Passing - 1/6 fumble, 1/6 wobble, 2/3 success (4/9 to catch it)

Note I have not put in the number crunch for injury in the blocking.

AG4 players excell greatly:

1/6 fumble, 5/6 success (iirc 13/18 to catch)

Those with Pass and Catch skills can always reroll and with other skills can be better.

But the 2 dice block is also a great shift (do not have the time to work out the probablities of down, push, knock down) but you still have to factor in the AV of the player and the 1/6 chance of causing an injury.

IMO the SPP generator is passing over blocking. What wins games is a mixture of both.
BTW forgot that Fummbl and CRP were using different rules - sorry.

[koadah]

...

I don't think I get your drift.

A 2D block only fails on a 1/36. If you an RR that's pretty safe.
If it dos fail it probably won't hurt your positioning too much.
That's a lot safer than AG3 passing to AG3.

With a pass you don't know where it will fail. At the pass or catch. Can you cover both?
Even if you have it covered you still have to roll dice to pick the ball up next turn. You may need to clear opposing TZs too.

[dode74]

Smurf, see here -> viewtopic.php?p=615154#p615154
My argument is that the risks compared to the rewards for each are comparable, but that the overall risk for passing is generally higher. For example, a 2d block with block has a 2.77% chance of a TO (without a TRR), whereas a best-case-scenario 2+ pass with a 2+ catch using pass and catch (or one of those plus a TRR) has a 5.5% chance of a turnover.

Koadah, is your argument is that it could be used by elves to SPP farm? Because pass-farming is risky, and being able to do so is itself a skill, just as stalling is.
Otherwise you're strawmanning - I said nothing about all human linemen and was ridiculing your argument that the real reward is winning the game for not handing out SPP for achievements. If the real reward is winning the game then why are we giving out SPP at all?

[koadah]

Koadah, is your argument is that it could be used by elves to SPP farm? Because pass-farming is risky, and being able to do so is itself a skill, just as stalling is.
Otherwise you're strawmanning - I said nothing about all human linemen and was ridiculing your argument that the real reward is winning the game for not handing out SPP for achievements. If the real reward is winning the game then why are we giving out SPP at all?

If you're going to be silly about it the a silly response is all you deserve.

[dode74]

If you think I'm being silly about it then I am clearly not understanding your argument. Please expand on

Anyway, the real reward is winning the game. Foul up the pass and you could be in all sorts of trouble.

[garion]

Hi Garion,
well, I think FUMBBL is an overly TV-obsessive environment.
I've certainly seen plenty of throwers around in the MBBL - na dnot just leader caddies.

Either way, Smuf commented on an LRB5+ change to safe throw - which is why I figured it wouldn't be reflected in your LRB4 experience. Even if he is a bit optimistic on that account. But safe throw change and new diving catch certainly makes passing more viable.

Cheers
Martin

While I may play mostly on fumbbl. I do play in leagues on the site not just the open divisions and again passing is pretty much non existent. Yes Diving Catch and Safe throw make it more viable but why would you need those skills to play a passing game anyway? Diving Catch maybe if you are Ag3 but there is no point for ag 2 players. The problem with passing is it is far too big a risk - even with ag 2 players. Having to make a 2+ followed by a 2+ even with re-rolls is a risk I would never like to make unless I am happy I have got the game in the bag anyway or there is no other option. Also giving safe throw to your passer is crazy imo, how often will that ever get used, in a short league or perpetual environement? As I said, I played with high elves for just over 70 games in CRP I only ever used it once and it failed its not a good usage to cost ratio. similarly strong arm is no longer worth the investment for most throwers because it is an increase of 30 for a skill that probably shouldn't be being used too often anyway.

In LRB4 strong arm was better (and passing really) because you didn't pay over the odds for the passing skills. Which is why Joemanjis idea is a good one. If you give all the skills costs and make them cost that much regardless of whether you need to roll a double or single to get them, then with the right pricing for strong arm, safe throw etc.. would be more viable options.

P.S.
Check back a page or two to see how I would price the skills.

[Chris]

I was under the impression that the big bonus for safe throw was the reduced chance of fumbling? Not the prevention of interceptions. I fumble passes all the time!

[garion]

I was under the impression that the big bonus for safe throw was the reduced chance of fumbling? Not the prevention of interceptions. I fumble passes all the time!

Yup that is the big bonus now, but as I say, I try never to pass so never saw that bonus. Hand-offs to catchers are just better.

[Darkson]

I always wanted to try the House Rule that the Thrower got 1 SPP for a caught Accurate pass (we removed the restriction that it had to be caught by the intended receiver [which was an unneeded nerf to passing imo]), plus an additional 1SPP if the receiver scored in that turn (either by being in the EZ at the catch, or by entering the EZ during it's action).

Sadly never got a chance to try it out (not a lot of passing in our ARBBL Goes Chaos league ).