Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[garion]

agree again with your two posts, yeah get rid of +av and bring back spikes. Deffo!

also please do read them - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=35853

[DoubleSkulls]

this way it wouldn't just be Tier 3 teams that challenged a coach, but some of the races listed on the last pages of the rulebook again

Wouldn't making more of the tier 1 teams worse, when not justified by win %, run counter to the overarching goals of NTBB?

If you really want to challenge yourself you can roll a D10 and pray you get the one you want, if not you've got 20k of TV bloat you can only get rid of by replacing the player.

[voyagers_uk]

Ian, your arguement seems to be that, and correct me if I am wrong, that Tier 1 teams with mutation access would be made worse if they cannot access claw at will. is this then not a flaw in the design of those teams. they have to jhave claw access or will fall out of the top of tier 1, do they belong there without claw?

NTBB has a theme/undercurrent that I keep coming back to as I believe it should apply in the normal game. Increased gameplay is better for all concerned, having to join the CPMOB arms race to stay competitive doesn't seem much like the game I fell in love with 20 odd years ago.

NTBB at least is looking to weaken the super powers and increase flexibility in builds to promote game play.

surely a mutation access team should have access to more than Claw in the mutation category and all mutations should be of equal strength and desirablity, currently not the case

[voyagers_uk]

and it is only bloated TV if you cannot make it work for you, something the one-directional gameplay of recent times seems to indicate it would be a good thing to enforce on them

[DoubleSkulls]

Ian, your arguement seems to be that, and correct me if I am wrong, that Tier 1 teams with mutation access would be made worse if they cannot access claw at will. is this then not a flaw in the design of those teams. they have to jhave claw access or will fall out of the top of tier 1, do they belong there without claw?

Of course Chaos teams would be worse if they random access to 10 skills they can currently pick from as they desire. What do you think the impact on Dwarves would be if you made S random access for them? They'd be pretty messed up in most formats. Saying its bad design is just being mischievous.

I'm happy to accept Claw, when combined with other kill skills, is more powerful than I intended and that makes the game duller than it could be since all the bash teams race to the combo. Since its a problem that's specific to high TV environments, and particularly online ones, then I'd look at fixing it for those environments. Your suggestion is basically killing off Big Hand gutter runners or Two headed Beastmen just as much as CLPOMB Nurgle Warriors irrespective of the TV or whether its a regular table top league or FUMBBL Black Box.

[spubbbba]

What about if they combined the variable skill cost with random mutations?

You could get combos of the less good ones to make it more interesting so for 20K you’d get extra arms and big hand whilst claw would be 30K. Either that or if you rolled a 10K mutation then you could choose another 10K mutation.

[dode74]

@Dode - If you have a problem with horns the easy and best thing to do is put them back to lrb4 version, that was perfect. It meant you could tie them up with a wall of Guard if you had the players built that way and they couldnt escape it with a Blitz. Because they had to move 1 square before blitzing.

I thought about that and rejected it on the basis that it was changed to the way it is now to give Chaos a low-TV boost. That's why I came up with this option: viewtopic.php?p=632132#p632132

That said, I appreciate he is looking for minimal changes, I just wonder if we've all been looking in the right place.

[voyagers_uk]

Ian, your arguement seems to be that, and correct me if I am wrong, that Tier 1 teams with mutation access would be made worse if they cannot access claw at will. is this then not a flaw in the design of those teams. they have to jhave claw access or will fall out of the top of tier 1, do they belong there without claw?

Of course Chaos teams would be worse if they random access to 10 skills they can currently pick from as they desire. What do you think the impact on Dwarves would be if you made S random access for them? They'd be pretty messed up in most formats. Saying its bad design is just being mischievous.

I'm happy to accept Claw, when combined with other kill skills, is more powerful than I intended and that makes the game duller than it could be since all the bash teams race to the combo. Since its a problem that's specific to high TV environments, and particularly online ones, then I'd look at fixing it for those environments. Your suggestion is basically killing off Big Hand gutter runners or Two headed Beastmen just as much as CLPOMB Nurgle Warriors irrespective of the TV or whether its a regular table top league or FUMBBL Black Box.

But the thing is, I am not necessarily saying it is bad design, as you cannot design the people who chose to do this with the ruleset, I was merely trying to understand your point. What I am saying is that given what you know now, would you have done what you did, and if you could change it now, would you look to do something that, whilst not preventing the players you reference, at least makes them less likely but intriniscally lucky to have. The Chaos All Stars of legend had a mixture of players and skills, not 4 CPOMB killers and some scrubs.

In small local TT leagues you will always have a player or two who thinks it is more fun to MDK themselves to notoriety, but they tend not to win the league and therefore lose faith in the tactic, or the Commish has a word to prevent the league fubar-ing the guy for being a jerk. In online/Perpetual leagues it is more commonplace and harder to round them up and put them in a field...etc.

maybe Garions traits are a solution in part. maybe Guard rather than Stand Firm should be a trait.. I hate traits but maybe that is the counter arguement to those who believe Dwarves and Orcs would walk away with titles after CPOMB disappears.

the horse has bolted but can we not close the gate anyway and draw the horse back to a much nicer field.....

[garion]

I agree with most of that Voyager. But Guard can never be a trait. No guard for elves, Yuck

But the overall point is a valid one I think.

[Darkson]

I like Darksons mutations rules as well, though I think there are too many dud ones in his list.

That's deliberate.

[Darkson]

I find myself more and more hankering over random skills for everyone, a la 2nd edition...

[DoubleSkulls]

Getting quite a bit away from NTBB aren't we?

[garion]

I'm not sure this thread was ever on topic after page 2 really lol.. poor martin

[voyagers_uk]

at least we are imho trying to stick to the ideal of what he wants, maybe without narrowing the tiers, but definitely trying to agree how to open up game-play.

guard as a trait was an example to try and get past some of the resistance that this might have.

[adhansa]

I tried to do the numbers on Claw breaks AV on 8+ before modification and PO rerolls injuries (ver1) on may be used on AVdoubbles with 0/+2 (ver2).

• ver1
  Noskill
  Av, Break Armour, Stunned, KO´d, Cas, Chanse of using PO
  9 16,67% 9,72% 4,17% 2,78%
  8 27,78% 16,20% 6,94% 4,63%
  7 41,67% 24,31% 10,42% 6,94%
  
  MB
  9 27,78% 13,73% 7,56% 6,48%
  8 41,67% 20,45% 11,19% 10,03%
  7 58,33% 28,47% 15,51% 14,35%
  
  ClawMB
  9 41,67% 17,36% 12,73% 11,57%
  8 41,67% 17,36% 12,73% 11,57%
  7 58,33% 28,47% 15,51% 14,35%
  
  POMB
  9 27,78% 7,01% 11,28% 9,49% 14,35%
  8 41,67% 10,51% 16,56% 14,60% 21,99%
  7 58,33% 14,72% 22,82% 20,79% 31,25%
  
  ClawPOMB
  9 41,67% 10,51% 14,76% 16,40% 24,31%
  8 41,67% 10,51% 14,76% 16,40% 24,31%
  7 58,33% 14,72% 22,82% 20,79% 31,25%
  
  ver 2
  Noskill, MB, CLawMB the same as ver 1
  
  POMB
  9 38,89% 16,67% 10,96% 11,27% 16,67%
  8 50,00% 20,45% 14,51% 15,05% 16,67%
  7 66,67% 28,47% 18,98% 19,21% 16,67%
  
  ClawPOMB
  9 50,00% 18,75% 14,81% 16,44% 16,67%
  8 50,00% 18,75% 14,81% 16,44% 16,67%
  7 66,67% 28,47% 18,98% 19,21% 16,67%