Need ideas for nerfing dwarfs - round 3: Poll

[Pink Horror]

I also don't like most of these options, because they add player types and aren't really nerfs. Plasmoid's league should get what they're asking for, if only so they learn their lesson:

80k Blockers. 100k Slayers.

[Melipone]

So, merging this idea with sticking some wrestle on them, I get:
Blockers reduced to 0-2
0-16 linemen added 5329 wrestle, thick skull 70K

I'd stick with 0-4 blockers myself (the question of how much of a nerf you're looking for is really the part that is half in and half out of this discussion thread by your original remit...but that's what I'd go for.

And one thing you didn't mention - would those linemen come with GS or just G access on regular skill rolls? I think just G access would be right (with 0-4 blockers...0-2 blockers and I can see the argument for keeping S access. Which is why I prefer 0-4 blockers and no S access without doubles for the linemen as being MORE of a nerf).

[plasmoid]

Short reply:
If a league thinks that the dwarf team needs a nerf, then I just don't see how 0-4 blockers cut the mustard. If the linemen are halway decent, they'll still have a virtually unchanged first 11.

As for your question, with 0-2 I meant for the linemen to have GS. S on everybody (but the runners) is for me something very dwarfish. Kind of like thick skull on everybody.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Time for round 2
Hi all - HELP!
The list has grown massive, and I need to trim it to 5-6 favourites.
So please:
Post here indicating the handful of nerfs that you like the best! Please.
I've lumped some suggestions together, so they can be voted on as a concept. If one of them goes to the top, we'll discuss the options again (with a separate poll)

The list:
1a Longbeards lose block, gain wrestle
1b Longbeards lose block, price reduced to 60K
1c Longbeards lose tackle, no price reduction
1d Longbeards lose tackle, gain 0-4 blitzers
1e Longbeards reduced to 0-4 - new (60-70K) lineman added
1f Longbeards reduced to 0-2 - new (60-70K) lineman added
1g Longbeards lose S access.

2a Remove blitzers

3a Troll slayers to AV7, no price reduction
3b Troll slayers lose block, gain juggernaut
3c Troll slayers lose block

4a Runner to MA5
4b Runner to MA5, but gain sure feet
4c Runner lose sure hands
4d Runner lose sure hands, gain dump off

5a 10K price bump on rerolls or 1 position
5b 10K price bump on 2 or more things (rerolls/positionals)

Cheers
Martin

[Tripleskull]

I like 3b and ac.

I forgot to mention, that I think the most important nerf for Dwarf is to nerf or increase the price of Boomer Eziasson to about 100-120 k. Maby you could remove accurate.

Boomer Eziasson is the sole reason I play dwarf in mbbl. He is so broken, and Im trying to prove it.

[Joemanji]

Dwarfs don't need nerfing. If a league nerfs Dwarfs/Undead etc as suggested another team will just rise to the top and seem all powerful (probably Amazons). Basic principle of balance.

If I had to vote for one, it would be Tackle off the linemen. For a proper nerf you'd keep them at 70K, though that is quite harsh since their cost by the formula should be 50K.

[Tripleskull]

keep in mind that this is not a diskussion about wether dwarfs need nerfing. And you have given the exact reason to not remove tackle. Some teams balance depend on some bad matchups. mass tackle is important for this role.

I have suggested 3b and 4c exatly because they affect other teams the least. They meainly make the dwarfs a little shaky - early on at least. And they fit the fluff of a clumsy and a crazy dwarf...

[plasmoid]

Hi Joemanji,

Dwarfs don't need nerfing.

As stated, this thread is merely to come up with sensible ideas for leagues who think that they do need nerfing.

If a league nerfs Dwarfs/Undead etc as suggested another team will just rise to the top and seem all powerful (probably Amazons). Basic principle of balance.

Naturally, in a hierarchy, there will always be a top.
But the argument for any nerf or buff is that the margin by which the team is at the top/bottom is too big.

Cheers
Martin

[Joemanji]

Yes but the message implicit in this thread is that they do need nerfing. So you should include in all your polls / discussions the option for no change (from LRB6).

Are you really saying you have no personal agenda? And this is purely a "resource"? Else why haven't you run threads about nerfs for Amazons or Orcs or Humans?

[Joemanji]

Naturally, in a hierarchy, there will always be a top.
But the argument for any nerf or buff is that the margin by which the team is at the top/bottom is too big.

I didn't even know there was a large enough data sample from LRB6 to make that statement. Can you direct me towards it?

[voyagers_uk]

Joe, you are asking the same questions I did....

as long as this is a harmless exercise for leagues such as the polar opposite of the league in BBMag 3 then I am fine to "play" with ideas for nerfing

if it comes back as "proof" of Dwarven Excess and leads to a nerf, I for one will be out hunting Danes....

[plasmoid]

Like I've said before:
This is inspiration for leagues that already consider them broken.

Also, the original question was not "whether they're broken or not" - but "what would you suggest for someone who thinks they are". So these polls can never be used to argue that "a majority of coaches want something to change".

Better?
Martin

PS, I think that 1475 results was a pretty big sample, but hey, that's not what this thread was about.
What I wanted to clarify was simply that it is a fatally flawed argument to say that "since there will always be a top team, there is no valid reason to ever buff/nerf anything"

[Tripleskull]

Im not sure I find dwarfs is in need of a nerf, other than a nerf to the bomb star. So I have no agenda in that direction. Wrestle was a massive blow to a grinding team like dwarfs. And a single minotaur or beast with claw really is a massive blow to the little ones. But If I wanted to prove my point I wouldnt wanna make house rule nerfs, I would wanna play them and be winning all the time.

I think I might already have won one player over this way...

[Thadrin]

What would I suggest for someone who thinks Dwarfs are broken?
A hefty slap around the head would be a good start.

[plasmoid]

Hi Joe,

Yes but the message implicit in this thread is that they do need nerfing.

Sure, read whatever into them that you want.
But I thought the intro was fairly explicit.

So you should include in all your polls / discussions the option for no change (from LRB6).

So - a commish friend of yours says that he and his league finds x team to be unbalanced. They want to come up with a good tweak, but are not really sure what would be appropriate. So they ask you. And you tell them to not change the team.
I figure they'll ask someone else then.
Not Thadrin tough, he'll apparently just slap them

Are you really saying you have no personal agenda?

Yes. That is what I'm saying.

And this is purely a "resource"?

Yes. Apart from the quotation marks around resource.

Else why haven't you run threads about nerfs for Amazons or Orcs or Humans?

Joe. You strike me as a guy with trust issues
I did run humans actually.
I took the usual stats as my starting point:
http://www.plasmoids.dk/bbowl/LRB5Stats.htm
I ran threads on the 6 lowest placed still existing teams teams. I skipped orcs and included chaos, because of their very poor stats for short term/tournament play.
I then ran threads for the 3 highest placed teams - skipping new necro because that sample was extremely small.

So - except for not doing orcs, I tried to be objective. I did not do orcs because they were above the 45% cut-off for both league and tournament play. I also believe that starting a thread asking for orc buffs would have me answering a lot of "are you serious" posts.

Martin