Alternative Humans

[mattgslater]

The thing is that human catchers are quite good in defence. They are good at tying people up and absorbing blocks (dodge/sidestep) as well as being fast enough to be useful at turning a drive around if the ball pops free. The problem is that they just dont stay on the pitch long enough if your opponent plays a grinding drive.

Thier av7 prevents them from being able to soak up hits properly. This means that a lineman has to do the duty instead which robs humans of their flexibility on defence.

Bang-on.

[Podfrey]

The thing is that human catchers are quite good in defence. They are good at tying people up and absorbing blocks (dodge/sidestep) as well as being fast enough to be useful at turning a drive around if the ball pops free. The problem is that they just dont stay on the pitch long enough if your opponent plays a grinding drive.

Thier av7 prevents them from being able to soak up hits properly. This means that a lineman has to do the duty instead which robs humans of their flexibility on defence.

Square Peg --> Round Hole?

Yes you have some advantages on defence by using Catchers over Linemen, but that comes with a trade off (and should do). You can't have everything!! (only Undead are allowed that )

The flexibility of humans should be the strategic and tactical flexibility, i.e. how the team as a whole develops and who takes to the field for each drive, not at an operational level of developing 11 players who play regardless of attack or defence.

@ Katadder - I personally like the set up of the humans as current. Fixed, well defined positions makes them interesting and you can visualise the exciting, lightning quick, lightweight, showboating catchers pelting down a wing, dancing round the opponent only for the 1 in 9 to hit and them drop the ball and get thoroughly pounded on! Then there's the "star player" Blitzers who hunt in pairs/packs to fling some almighty blows around trying to get through the cage and at the opposing ball carrier, or smashing the opposing line and covering the catchers break through. So versatile and so useful in all situations. Quarterback thrower, who's equally capable of dropping a pass into a catcher or blitzer, etc, etc. The problem is how to make all of that "work" on the pitch without changing the image. The "missing" piece in translating image to performance is, I believe, to give the humans a player who starts out of the box as useful, but can't easily develop down a line that's not intended. Hence the 0-2 Blocker, 5328, Guard, G access, 70k or 80k. He's not over-prolific, he's not going to skill too fast, he's not wearing Orc armour , has a useful starting skill (that other Linemen could gain, but would need a double) and doesn't end up easily gaining Block + Stand Firm too easily. He's also fairly cheap as, although Guard is a superb starting skill (supports the rest of his Linemen mates), his stats are slightly reduced making him less likely to SPP hog. In short it's nothing a basic Lineman couldn't get (given time) but allows the Humans that basic skill at an entry/low level.

[mattgslater]

Yes you have some advantages on defence by using Catchers over Linemen, but that comes with a trade off (and should do). You can't have everything!! (only Undead are allowed that )

The flexibility of humans should be the strategic and tactical flexibility, i.e. how the team as a whole develops and who takes to the field for each drive, not at an operational level of developing 11 players who play regardless of attack or defence.

Umm... with a 16-man roster, any 0-4 position has to be usable (or develop-able) to go both ways. You can develop a defensive Catcher and an offensive Catcher over the space of a few games. But the defensive Catcher (or the rookie Catcher expressed defensively) is missing a key component to make him a usable player in context. The Skaven, Woodie and High Elf Catchers all have this component in one form or another, be it real breakaway speed or the strength to go one-on-one if need be. Humans are close: I think +AV is the closest thing available to minor surgery on a team that shouldn't need anything drastic.

[SillySod]

Yes you have some advantages on defence by using Catchers over Linemen, but that comes with a trade off (and should do). You can't have everything!!

I agree, catchers shouldnt be directly better than linemen. However they would still be St2 so they still sacrificing something for the extra flexibility. I certainly wouldnt field four of them in defence even if they had the extra armour.

[Glorian Underhill]

I would take Ians list any day:

0-16 Linemen 6338 G-ASP 50k
0-2 Throwers 6338 Pass, Sure Hands GP-AS 70k
0-4 Catchers 7337 Catch, Dodge GA-SP 80k
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block GS-AP 80k
0-1 Ogre 5529 unchanged S-GAP 140k

But this whole discussion has some true points on whom most of us can agree. The current human Roster is no way near the top 6. At least the NAF results show that clearly that humans are in the middlefield or in the down third of the table.

see: http://naf.doubleskulls.net/total_for_a ... tions.html

Also at the tournamnts they start with all their skills at the start at the begining, but they couldn't really capitalize on it. Place 16 from 24 worldwide. I know this isn't the whole story with the other side of the medal came from the mbbl and the league success of the team. But it shows that they are not where they are supposed to be. Or in my oppinion supposed to be.

One year ago I tried to bring the question up how the human Catcher can been changed. As some agreed here, the Catcher seems to be the weak link of the human team.

The two paths to change the Catcher are the slower stronger approach (7337), or the more resillient catcher(8238).

The 7337 Catcher as suggested by Ian would make the humans as good as the Orcs. 8 Players on the field with MV7, all St3 would improve them a lot as the 8237 Catcher is only good at catching and scoring. For a one turn ball carrieing in a cage of some sort the Catcher just isn't strong enough. Some say yes, that is right. the 8237 Catcher is not for bashing. When he survives the cage Blitz of the opponent he has just to dodge away and score. But the problem is, that the Catcher is not capable of doing this relatively often. AG3 Dodges even with Dodge aren't a safe thing I do every turn.

For the AG4 Gutter Runners, Elfcatchers, Slanncatchers it is an absolute no brainer. They have no strengh, they dodge. Touchdown...

The 8237 Catcher cannot blitz himself free, nor can he Dodge that good. I know that he can score most of the time, and also that with an assist he can Blitz himself free with one block die. But these are risky moves and won't work on a regular base.

The 7337 Catcher on the other hand might be a ball carrier for two turns. He also isn't that good at Dodging, but he is capable of Blitzing himself free and then go off. Most Undead Coaches will know that Dodging with the ghoul is the last option. First they try to blitz the ghoul free with one of their own players, whights excell at that. If that doesn't work the ghoul will get an assist and then Blitz himself free. Two Block dice with the chance of two times 3+ to get free, with the chance of two times 5+ to hit the usual opponent down. And if this doesn't work than the ghoul can dodge to where he like to go. And only if this other options aren't available, than the ghoul would just start to dodge on his own.

So the 7337 ghoul ahs the chance to blitz himself free and or dodge. The 8237, or 8238 Catcher has not this chance. Even with an assist he can try to blitz free on a 3+ on a Bock Dice, and then maybe Dodge. So Dodging, or Blitzing free is not an alternative.

I hope that some of my thoughts make sense to the reader, so my oppinion is that a change to 8238 won't bring the humans up on the ladder.

A 7337 Catcher could do it or a 8237 Catch, Dodge, "Sprint" catcher could achieve this. Most people are against a 0-4 7337 catcher human team, as it would bring them to 8 MV7 ST3 Players. The Darkelfes have the same opportunity with a lot of more costs, but all with AG4. 4 of them have Block, two Dodge. And 6 of them can turn into Blodgers with one extra skill.

[bjorn9486]

I think Glorian Underhill did a good job of summing up what is wrong with the catcher.

[purdindas]

I think Glorian Underhill did a good job of summing up what is wrong with the catcher.

Don't forget the fact that the catcher is way to fragile also. If he gets victimised by the opposition (Always happens especially if he has the ball) or fails a dodge (1/9 chance) he is quite likely to become a casualty. They dont last long in league play until they get block. It has been mentioned before but I'll bring it up again. ST2 + AV7 is a double dose of death for the catcher and he is easy pray for the opposing blitzers.

[frogbear]

Glorian

I think the discussion about the catcher attaining the ST3 is that he will pretty much cease to be a catcher in favour of skilling him up as a type of blitzer. I know my first skills on such a player would be wrestle. 4x Blitzers with Block and 4 x blitchers with dodge/wrestle then becomes a running game. I would add the ogre in there just to complete the stompathon. It will change the game for humans overall.

I believe you make good observations. I just think you have conveniently overlooked the above aspect of the change. But if that is what the majority of people want, then so be it. Personally I really liked the idea by Lucifer regarding the 2 blockers with guard.

[Joemanji]

I see Geoff's point about not wanting to change the style of Humans. They play the right way IMO, but they just aren't effective. Or not as effective as they should be.

Btw, the existing 8237 Catcher is fine IMO. That MA8 is one of the great strengths of the team, with great recovery speed and the ability to put on pressue. Sure, he is a bit fragile. But some players are meant to be fragile. However, he is overcosted, whereas comparable players on the HE and Skaven teams are undercosted. They should just be reduced to 60K, along with 80K Blitzers.

IMO Humans should be average and numerous. That is their stylistic type in all GW games. These stat changes and Blockers are all well and good, but Humans don't need to be redesigned, just tweaked IMO.

Cheers
Joe

[bjorn9486]

ST2 + AV7 is a double dose of death for the catcher and he is easy pray for the opposing blitzers.

I agree with you on that, but if you increase ST to 3, I think that would mitigate the effects of AV7 somewhat.

[katadder]

Glorian

I think the discussion about the catcher attaining the ST3 is that he will pretty much cease to be a catcher in favour of skilling him up as a type of blitzer. I know my first skills on such a player would be wrestle. 4x Blitzers with Block and 4 x blitchers with dodge/wrestle then becomes a running game. I would add the ogre in there just to complete the stompathon. It will change the game for humans overall.

I believe you make good observations. I just think you have conveniently overlooked the above aspect of the change. But if that is what the majority of people want, then so be it. Personally I really liked the idea by Lucifer regarding the 2 blockers with guard.

I agree here and think he should stay as is or humans will end up with lots of blitzer types. there is one str3 human catcher out there, but shes move 6 and AV7 so think about our poor amazon catchers whilst you are talking about the boost to the human one. and shes the same price as the human one.
i like the human team as is and see it more of a challenge and it should only be a middle of the road team as they dont specialise at anything but are not bad at all stuff having fast people, people with str skills, big guy access etc

[stashman]

So here is the team as we all wan't it...

0-16 Linemen 6338 G/ASP 50k
0-2 Throwers 6338 Pass, Sure Hands GP/AS 70k
0-4 Catchers 8237 Catch, Dodge GA/SP 60k
0-4 Blitzer 7338 Block GS/AP 80k
0-1 Ogre 5529 unchanged S/GAP 140k

[katadder]

nope not at all, and thats generalising saying all want, when only some want that, some want strength increase and some want armour increase plus some like me dont want any change.
human catchers are fine at 70k. as they have speed on their side. like i said compared to an amazon catcher a human catcher is +2 speed and -1 ST for the same price so for an amazon to get to the same MA as human level would cost 60k in 2 advances whilst a human one to get the ST would cost 50k on one advance.

[PubBowler]

If the thinking is Catchers for 60k, I'd prefer Blitzers to stay 90k.
Might make human line ups more varied.

[bjorn9486]

If the thinking is Catchers for 60k, I'd prefer Blitzers to stay 90k.
Might make human line ups more varied.

Why? You still will have ST 2 AV 7 guys, so the probability of potting more than 2 on the field at a time is slim. With 60k catchers, you can just afford to buy them back more easily, it doesn't solve the human problem.