Narrow Tier BB - 2012

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
OK - I'm catching a lot of grief concerning those amazon catchers.
I'm quite sure I'd use at least one - I like a good hand-off option, as well as they ease of access to the DCatch+Catch combo.
But I can tell I'm outnumbered.

These are my problems moving forward:
1. As Spubbbba rightly points out, I'm not into roster overhauls. I think they'd just scare people off. Also, I've seen maybe 30 suggested amazon rosters and lots of threads about them, and the main theme to those threads seem to be 'well I prefer my own roster'. Not the remotest chance of consensus, which leads my right back to KISS.

2. When nerfing I've very carefully avoided combining a nerf with a buff, because if the theorybowling is off, you end up with a net-buff and that would be a disaster!
Right now I'm heavily tempted by The.Toks suggestion of giving them MA7 - it would certainly make them more useful (and by extension maybe the thrower too), and it would be a nice break from all that 6337 which everybody seems to hate.

My question is: Would wrestle blitzers and MA7 catchers (80K) end up reversing the nerf, so I'd have a de-facto buff on my hands?

Edit: Oh. Oh. How about adding Diving Catch to the catchers (for free) instead of the MA. Less potential for being a stealth buff. More direct synergy with the throwers. And ties in well with my general theme of adding the new skills. WDYT?

Please let me know what you think. And please think hard before you reply. I'm definately with 'better safe than sorry on these'.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi Voyagers_uk,
I've saved you for last. And as witnessed by the time-stamp on my posts Thank goodness my wife has dozed off on the couch

I believe that widening the gameplay is a better goal and that seems to be a side effect of Martin's efforts so I applaud him and it.

Thanks a lot for your support. I really appriciate it.
And you've indeed hit my goal spot-on. I'm not doing NTBB and narrowing the tiers for the sake of some abstract concept of balance - but for the diversity that hopefully entails. Narrowing the tiers is just a means to an end.

1) Jump Up usable in Pass Block situations to allow player to stand up and intercept
2) Throw Team mate (Thrower to be able to move whilst holding the little guys)

I used number 1 for several years in my old league. Worked great!
Haven't tried #2, but I have played with TTM hand-offs (awesome!) and I've also suggested on many occasions to give +1 to the landing roll of a player not holding the ball. It would open up so many interesting options for TTM teams.
So I like both ideas!

What they lack for me is the sense of urgency/purpose that I'm trying for with NTBB. Without that I'd be inclined to go nuts with all kinds of tweaks and changes - and probably alienate everyone in the process
Cheers
Martin

[koadah]

I don't want to use a team that goes 0/0/9 every season. I wouldn't use that team for very long.

But we don't have any teams now that would go 0/0/9 in the hands on an average coach, unless it's an average coach in a league of above-average coaches all using T1, in which case the average coach is in trouble whatever roster they take.

I think you're over-stating how bad the T3 rosters are to make your case (all-Snots excepted).

Yes agreed. Exaggerated to make the point. But the point still stands. A better team will attract more people than those few crazy guys.

[plasmoid]

Right. For those why skipped over my wall of text (tm):
1. I'm considering switching to straight LRB4 PiOn (PiOn rerolls armor only)
and
2. I'm considering a small buff to the 'redundant' amazon catcher.

Please give your feedback on these
Cheers
Martin

[koadah]

Hi all,
OK - I'm catching a lot of grief concerning those amazon catchers.
I'm quite sure I'd use at least one - I like a good hand-off option, as well as they ease of access to the DCatch+Catch combo.
But I can tell I'm outnumbered.

These are my problems moving forward:
1. As Spubbbba rightly points out, I'm not into roster overhauls. I think they'd just scare people off. Also, I've seen maybe 30 suggested amazon rosters and lots of threads about them, and the main theme to those threads seem to be 'well I prefer my own roster'. Not the remotest chance of consensus, which leads my right back to KISS.

2. When nerfing I've very carefully avoided combining a nerf with a buff, because if the theorybowling is off, you end up with a net-buff and that would be a disaster!
Right now I'm heavily tempted by The.Toks suggestion of giving them MA7 - it would certainly make them more useful (and by extension maybe the thrower too), and it would be a nice break from all that 6337 which everybody seems to hate.

My question is: Would wrestle blitzers and MA7 catchers (80K) end up reversing the nerf, so I'd have a de-facto buff on my hands?
Please let me know what you think. And please think hard before you reply. I'm definately with 'better safe than sorry on this'.

Cheers
Martin

I don't think that A access really helps them that much at the higher end.

Side step is nice but you already have dodge and the catchers can have DT. They way I see it you are still going to get hammered by the tackle/POMBers.
I totally agree that the blodgers are too strong at low TV but at higher TV they help get you back in business quicker after the inevitable AV7 train wreck.

[Chris]

I remain anti wrodge blitzers. The point about needing fully formed players at high tvs for fragile teams is a good one - look at the angst around losing a black orc for example and Orcs aren't that fragile.

Make the catcher the current human catcher with diving catch instead of catch. That is a change giving different game play options and dynamics.

Still though I think the universal dodge is too good to start with and as things develope leads to few places to go.

[legowarrior]

One crazy idea - Pile On stays uber, but when you use it, you have to roll an armor break for yourself. Since it is a controlled fall (as opposed to a smack down) I'd say that if the armor break, you are automatically stunned, but nothing else.

The end result is that when you decide that the armor really needs to be broken or an injury has to happen, there is a chance that your own player might have a tough time getting back up after smashing him hard.

If that seems a little too harsh, you could say that you only have to roll the armor break if you rolled doubles, indicating an incredibly hard fall.

Either way, I like the idea of big gains, big loss myself!

To the other argument

Why are there tiered teams?
Because then good players can have fun without dominating.

What is the consequence of this?
In leagues were average players resent good players, good players are forced to play a handful of crappy teams. In leagues with only average players, few if any of the players can afford to play as the tier 3 teams without giving up too much ground.

End Result?
The Cockerel of teams available to a player is much more limited then seems at first glance, whether a player is limited to good teams to win, or bad teams to have fun.

Personal and Humble Conclusion - A loss of choice in what teams I can reasonable play is not fun.

Alternative method?
I have a great one! If you are in a league and you are an excellent player of blood bowl, than the best solution is to get drunk! Obviously you handicap yourself in this way, everyone has fun, and no one is limited to what teams they feel they can play.
Throw out the tier system, you now have a sliding scale, the better you are, the more you must drink. Great player - 3 to 4 drinks, terrible players become designated drivers, and everyone stays safe.

Consequences - More fun for everyone.

End Results - Harmony in the world as we know it!

[Afroman]

Alternative method?
I have a great one! If you are in a league and you are an excellent player of blood bowl, than the best solution is to get drunk! Obviously you handicap yourself in this way, everyone has fun, and no one is limited to what teams they feel they can play.
Throw out the tier system, you now have a sliding scale, the better you are, the more you must drink. Great player - 3 to 4 drinks, terrible players become designated drivers, and everyone stays safe.

Consequences - More fun for everyone.

End Results - Harmony in the world as we know it!

I've heard tales from the danish coaches of games where they had to take a shot(of booze of course) everytime they used a team-reroll. You could expand this to include personal reorolls aswell! Or why not go all the way? for each action take a shot!

I wonder how long such a game would stay....logical?

[Darkson]

In leagues with only average players, few if any of the players can afford to play as the tier 3 teams without giving up too much ground.

I'm (assuming?) that part of your post was in jest, but I disagree with this. In our last (proper) league I took goblins, and I'm no longer the best player in the league.
I had great fun.

The only problem comes if coaches start obsessing on winning rather than having fun.

[koadah]

In leagues with only average players, few if any of the players can afford to play as the tier 3 teams without giving up too much ground.

I'm (assuming?) that part of your post was in jest, but I disagree with this. In our last (proper) league I took goblins, and I'm no longer the best player in the league.
I had great fun.

The only problem comes if coaches start obsessing on winning rather than having fun.

+1

[the.tok]

Alternative method?
I have a great one! If you are in a league and you are an excellent player of blood bowl, than the best solution is to get drunk! Obviously you handicap yourself in this way, everyone has fun, and no one is limited to what teams they feel they can play.
Throw out the tier system, you now have a sliding scale, the better you are, the more you must drink. Great player - 3 to 4 drinks, terrible players become designated drivers, and everyone stays safe.

Consequences - More fun for everyone.

End Results - Harmony in the world as we know it!

I've heard tales from the danish coaches of games where they had to take a shot(of booze of course) everytime they used a team-reroll. You could expand this to include personal reorolls aswell! Or why not go all the way? for each action take a shot!

I wonder how long such a game would stay....logical?

I love this idea!
a good balance would be "every time you use a skill"
certain teams like dwarves would balance themselves

Back on topic, I don't see the concern with frenzy mummies. I see it as a good choice, but not a game-breaking one. It can certainly drag you out of position if not careful. And again, it would be taken after block, mighty blow and guard, so we are toalking 4th skill on a slow to skill player...

About amazones, I think the wrestle blitzer (though the name could be changed, blitzer screams block in my mind)far outweigh the A access + 7MA catchers at low TV, as now you have no block on the team. That is pretty big, going from having 4 block to none, and no block/MB/PO player unless you have 2 double skills. It will be a long term buff, A-access means more sidestep, more DT, more options. Right now they are fairly straightforward

[Tourach]

I'm fine with catch and diving catch on the catchers for the same price.

I like the nerfed piling on, first suggested (mb with a twist) better than rr on armor (is there any stats for this, but i has to be better against av7 again or).

[garion]

Who was apropabella using? I thought I was flings next time?

As for zone I still think you should use my roster. I have play tested them for 10 games now. Obviously not enough to draw any conclusions other than they are not far too good or far too bad. But they are definitely more fun to play with and against. Though the change is bigger than yours and I understand you want to keep it simple.

[koadah]

I'm sure that it won't surprise you Garion to hear that I think your roster is even worse. Much worse.

An AG3 elf team? No thanks. And you're taking away dodge from some players which Plasmoid does not want to do.

For all the talk of overpowered they are currently one of the least used teams in the Box past 1700.
I don't see much in either roster that would improve their popularity at the higher end.

Take away dodge from the blitzers (yeah I know) and those key AV7 are a lot easier to get rid of at low TV when most teams have no tackle. If they take dodge next then you have slowed their progress towards guard/POMB.

I'd like to see how they got on with that before trying anything else.

You could maybe not replace the dodge but drop the price 10k and increase the cost of a RR.
Really I'd like fend but I guess that still might be too much early on.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
Tourach and The.Tok, thanks for acknowledging that I askes some questions . Anyone else?

Garion said:

Who was apropabella using? I thought I was flings next time?

Atropa is using Khemri (and Dark Elfs). You'd have to decide between flings and khemri, unfortunately.

I get that Amazons could be made more spectacular and fun. Getting anyone to agree on a roster would be a nightmare though. So, given what NTBB is, I'm working under some constraints.

Koadah said:

For all the talk of overpowered they are currently one of the least used teams in the Box past 1700.

I think the contention is that they're overpowered at low TV play, decent at mid TV play, and dead in the water at high TV play. (Hence the short term nerf, long term buff).

Take away dodge from the blitzers (yeah I know) and those key AV7 are a lot easier to get rid of at low TV when most teams have no tackle. If they take dodge next then you have slowed their progress towards guard/POMB.

As you know, I'd like to keep dodge on everyone. I think it's the very essence of the team.
But - notice that starting with wrestle is a lot like starting without dodge. You could use your first skill pick to get up to blodge - and then proceed from there.

Chris said:

Make the catcher the current human catcher with diving catch instead of catch. That is a change giving different game play options and dynamics.

And that's just it. I really don't want them to become a different team. (Nor do I want to infringe on the human team). BTW I think adding MA8 players to a MA6 team is a pretty big geal. I'm not sure how that would pan out.

Cheers
Martin