stand up for star players!

bound for glory · Post by **bound for glory** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 4:52 pm

i have a successfull league. without bragging, i would say its maybe the oldest and most consistant league in the eastern us. 16 years and still running twice a year. we play our league like the nfl or nhl(go devils!) and we have 25-30 coaches. all friends. 22-40 years old. no warhammer kids. anyway, we have about 140 or so star player file cards. we almost have a nice figure to go with each card. we play when you buy a star its yours for the season. unless the starplayer is killed, traded, or dropped. everyone loves playing with starplayers in our league. some coaches buy them, others don't. now, i'm not new to the site, but i'm new toposting. i read alot of posts about how bad stars are. maybe. but i would bet that this is mostly coming from the tourny players out there. try playing in a structured league. with friends. with no sharks who don't play for fun but only play to win. try it. star players only add to our great game. don't reject them, embrace them. and don't look down on leagues that use them. remember, star players were around probly longer than many of their critics have been playing bloodbowl. i still have my paper players, bought when new. can you say the same...?

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:24 pm

I don't look doen on leagues that use Stars as a permanent member of the team. If it works for them, then great.

However, we tried stars in our league (all friends also), before I got into the tourney circle, and we've added a no-stars rule to our set of house rules.

And I played 1st ed (though didn't buy it) and a couple here own it.

slup · Post by **slup** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:57 pm

The experience i have with permanent league star players is that it makes all teams into a star player team with supporting players.
There where no difference between human, orc or chaos.
They where all Morg teams.

bound for glory · Post by **bound for glory** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:36 pm

well, if coaches buy stars and the stars do all the work,well, you get a crap team with a cherry on top. i had a new guy who just joined our league say to me after his first league night,"my star player did great, but my other guys did'nt get much in the way of spps".gees, i just could'nt understand why. lets face it, theres two kinds of leagues in bloodbowl. on the one hand, you have leagues that run like real life leagues, nfl, nhl,etc. i'm real lucky to be a part of one of these. friends who DO show up every saturday night. or if they can't, they are commited enough to arraing to play there missed game during the week. one the other hand, you have half-asses 3rd edition leagues where you get a load of players who want to play, sometimes... ok, i'm here and your here so lets play. GREED WORKSHOP does'nt consistantly. stars are not the problem. i think the main issue is the tornament players don't want them. might hurt thier chanses of winning.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:28 pm

bound for glory wrote:i think the main issue is the tornament players don't want them. might hurt thier chanses of winning.

Nice way to generalise.

Shall I try one? I think the main issue with stars is that they're over-powered short-cuts for the powergamer.

Do I honestly believe that?

No, but hey, if a sweeping remark in one post is allowed...

bound for glory · Post by **bound for glory** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:05 pm

i did'nt mean to offened anyone,dark. i just think theres two different types of leagues and a differance between styles of league play. we like star players. some, or most don't. i think the people in my league like real league style play because ,like i said, we don't have to worry about how many people turn up. most coaches don't have that, i'll bet. really, no knock against the tourny players out there. not at all. i just think the game has a fundimental flaw. and that is not many people in any given area do'nt play bloodbowl. gw never really supported bb. still don't, imho.and lets not forget, its a points based system. you have x amount of funds to buy y amount of players, staff, re-roll, etc. and if you only rely on star players, you get a crap team with a cherry on top. and no one in my league thinks any or all star players are be all end all players. and they sure ain't unstoppabe. i'm rolling inanimante dice...how you playing?

gken1 · Post by **gken1** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:06 pm

permanent stars are instant fixes. I have nothing against stars and think free-booting stars works fine....u have to save up for that power for a must win game.

bound for glory · Post by **bound for glory** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:34 pm

i don't think there instant fixes when your playing a 16 game season. not counting play offs. maybe for for tournaments there an instant fix. or if you play a loose style league...i think stars have a place in bb. alot of people(not that i'm making a sweeping statment here) want alot of other people to play bloodbowl living rule style.ok.fine. but nobody had a probem with stars in the 80s and thats where alot of my gang started. has anyone looked at different sites with coaches homegrown star players? why the hate? i don't play tournaments. i have a HIGHLY succesful league. we don't look at the game as"must win" get togeathers. its all about having fun. and i don't think theres alot of"if you like playing with star players, thats cool!". its very sad alot of people(again, no sweeping ststmant) attack other coaches for EVEN suggesting star players have a place in bloodbowl. its a game. buy definition something that should be fun. telling people stars ar'nt the direction the game is heading is a VERY bold statment(and sweeping). who said that?

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Sat Jan 22, 2005 11:03 pm

bound for glory wrote:i don't think there instant fixes when your playing a 16 game season. not counting play offs. maybe for for tournaments there an instant fix. or if you play a loose style league...i think stars have a place in bb. alot of people(not that i'm making a sweeping statment here) want alot of other people to play bloodbowl living rule style.ok.fine. but nobody had a probem with stars in the 80s and thats where alot of my gang started. has anyone looked at different sites with coaches homegrown star players? why the hate? i don't play tournaments. i have a HIGHLY succesful league. we don't look at the game as"must win" get togeathers. its all about having fun. and i don't think theres alot of"if you like playing with star players, thats cool!". its very sad alot of people(again, no sweeping ststmant) attack other coaches for EVEN suggesting star players have a place in bloodbowl. its a game. buy definition something that should be fun. telling people stars ar'nt the direction the game is heading is a VERY bold statment(and sweeping). who said that?

It is very difficult for me to believe a person 22-40 years old, living in an English-speaking country, capable of organizing a group of thiry people, writes like this. But I will believe for now, because this person seems to have found the magic formula for long-lasting leagues, an appeal to power gamers.

I believe, if you can get together a group of people who all just try to have fun, you could chuck your dice in a dumpster, let the coach who's acting make up his rolls, and still have a balanced game. So how does your success, real or imagined, tell me that I should accept star players?

There's a lot of coaches here who want a game that can stand up to intense competition, even "munchkin" play (Blood Bowl is not an RPG, and even if you were playing a role it would be the coach, whose obvious goal would be to win at all costs. There's no reason why you shouldn't try to take advantage of the rules as much as possible.).

Anyway, how do stars make the game more fun? That's the premise, right? Is playing with or against a "crap team with a cherry on top" more fun than Blood Bowl without stars, and why? And how do you kick those "sharks" who ruin the game out of the league? Does whoever wins the tournament have to retire from Blood Bowl?

(Welcome to talkbowlbowl.com! I think you'll find that the people here are nicer than many of the other discussion boards on the internet.

)

omnimutant · Post by **omnimutant** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:48 am

I'd hate to see a Khemri team with a permanent Ramtut! 5 /Str5 with no nega traits is a bit over the top. Our league doesnt use starplayers at all but allows limited Secret weapons useage. It's pretty fun, and does'nt unbalance the game as much as one would think. Even the Gobo team we had for awhile sporting some 5 secret weapons, wasnt that much of a threat.

I have to agree that Permed Star Players could easily generate alot of teams based on the star player with a bunch of support players.

bound for glory · Post by **bound for glory** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:58 am

well pink, i guess you told me, huh? i know it might suprise ultra competitive types a group of friends might just have a league were the object is first and foremost enjoyment. weird concept here ,i know. i did'nt say the people in my league did'nt play to win. and when i mentioned"sharks", well, at most of our ages we don't feel the need to play what is after all a GAME,with people who hold winning over friendship and well, manners. this is the way our league is played. i'm really sorry if i angered you or anyone else. it just proves my point, most people want other people to play thier way and anything different is attacked. btw, you too could have just as successfull a league as we do.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:01 pm

bound for glory wrote:i'm really sorry if i angered you or anyone else. it just proves my point, most people want other people to play thier way and anything different is attacked.

However, this is the attitude you've given in your posts ("don't play with star? you're nuts!" [not paraphasing, just the tone that comes across]).

As I've said, if your league likes stars, and has fun while using them, then great, if it works for you. But you will find that many, if not most, posters here have tried stars in leagues, both permenant and freebooted, and given thechoice, will go freeboot, if not given the choice of taking them out entirely. It's what works for them.

narkotic · Post by **narkotic** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:26 pm

I'm too in the camp of coaches who dislike stars, but not because Stars are generally a bad thing but because the 3rd/LRB stars are (mostly) broken and OTT in many points.

I remember that most 2nd ed Stars were good 2 extra skill players or were a combination of few skills which you normally can't find on that position. Those types are fun, but not the "Give them 2 stat increases and also 5 Skills on top" stars and especially the Big Guy stars without negatraits is something I have to puke whenever they get onto the pitch.

Our league has banned all (official) stars but there are thoughts of making our own pool of stars from mid-experienced players from retired teams that were played in our league in one of the earlier seasons. If you have enough coaches you can also think of a transfer market (but you need several teams of each race for that).

All of these things are fun and can make league play even more interesting and gives a "league consciousness", but the out of the box Superman-Power Gamer stars that come with the basic BB game is not my idea of fun.

bound for glory · Post by **bound for glory** » Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:32 pm

point taken, guys. sorry if i sounded like a jerk

did'nt mean to push anything on anyone...or force an opion

slup · Post by **slup** » Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:10 pm

Another problem about starplayers is that (at least until Rules Review 2004) they are too cheap.
Griff at 180K is worth exactly 18 in Team Rating
A human blitzer with 7 skillrolls is worth at least 44 in Team Rating and increasing and he will not have 3 statincreases and 4 anytables.
And if he dies you will have to make a new from scratch whereas you could just spend 180K again on a new griff.
So if you develop you team without starplayers you will be at a sewere disadvantage at handicaps compared to a team with 4 griffs or morgs.

If star players should be a permanent addition to my league i would demand that they should be priced according to their value to the team making Griff cost somewhere above 600K.