think new Handicap table is too weak, but here's a thought..

scrollmaster · Post by **scrollmaster** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:46 am

I recently got into BloodBowl again after a break of 5 years. And after playing 5 games I cannot claim to be all-knowing about anything but I do find the handicap table too weak. Granted the old cards were powerful, but something between the two would be better.

The way I see it underdogs have a hard time of winning and therefore a hard time in getting SSP, so on my way home from last night's game I came up with this idea:

What if the underdog earned more SSPs?

Let's say your team is permitted one roll or more on the handicap table. In addition at the end of the match you roll a D6 for each player for any TouchDown he scored. On a 6 the player would get 1 extra SSP and if you won the game he would get the extra SSP on a 5 and a 6.

And you would roll a D6 for each player scoring a casualty. On a 6 the player would get an extra SSP and if you scored more casualties he would get the SSP on a 5 or a 6

This would let underdogs learn faster from their own experience

----------------
OR another idea would be to implement a sort of Final Fantasy X Blitz Ball type rule were underdogs could try to learn from an opposing player. For example a runner could try to copy another runner's ability to catch etc.

----------

Both are just rough thoughts and would need to be "cut to fit" the games so they wouldn't be too powerful.

What do you think? Did I even post this in the right forum?

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 1:28 pm

I think it would be better in the House Rules form or the BB 2K1 forum.

I agree that the Handicap table needs adjusting, and it's on our list of items to review this October. I think we can fix the table nicely by dropping the weaker results and weighting the table so that the best results are rarer. (Remember, the weakest results would still be pretty good.)

Don't hold your breath waiting for an official return of extra SPPs, however. They were a major contributing factor to bloat. Most data we have on 2K1 matches indicates that all teams tend to get 12-18 SPPs per game. Winners do not end up with signifcantly more than losers. Lower-rated teams generally need fewer SPPs to get to the next level, so they're in a good boat if they're within 5-10 SPPs per game of the victorious favorite.

Cheers!

-Chet

scrollmaster · Post by **scrollmaster** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 2:02 pm

Don't hold your breath waiting for an official return of extra SPPs

I wasn't aware they had been there, I started playing with 3ed. I guess they were removed for a reason back then.

carraway · Post by **carraway** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 11:59 am

Hi there,

in my opinion extra SSPs for lower teams is definitely necessary!
We are now in the second season in our league and some new teams joined our bunch of experienced teams.

Without the extra MVPs from 3rd Edition these teams would play all their lifetime as lower skilled teams with 3 to 4 rolls on the Handicap table! We use in our league still the cards of deathzone and although these cards are strong compared to the handicap table, the newbie-teams have a very hard time to win a match against the experienced ones!

=> new joiners will always be behind the others without extra SSP!

Besides it is rather realistic, that new teams snap up some tricks they see (and get to feel) by the opponents.

Ricky

http://www.weidner-web.de/BloodBowl/index.htm

scrollmaster · Post by **scrollmaster** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 1:25 pm

Besides it is rather realistic, that new teams snap up some tricks they see (and get to feel) by the opponents.

Excately. I don't want to make the game even so to speak. Most times the underdog should loose, but he should also learn more otherwise he will never reach the more experienced teams.

By giving extra ssp the weak team will eventually catch up with stronger teams making them equal on the field itself.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:29 am

I agree that the handicap table isn't effective enough to balance out games. However I don't believe extra SPPs are the answer.

IMO the handicap table should only effect the outcome of the game to be played. There should be no extra money or spps.

The weaker results on the handicap table should be replaced with more useful effects, buts thats all.

Ian

scrollmaster · Post by **scrollmaster** » Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:42 am

hmmm I don't know. Yes it should affect the game because that is were it is needed the most, but somebody had this idea which I think is a good idea:

cf: My suggested houserule for SPPs. Instead of drawing MVPs you roll an "experience" roll. 1 die per player and have to beat the current SPP score of the player in question. If you do, you get an SPP.

Would mean that you can coast all the way to the cusp of your first skill, after that you're on your own.

This would help boost a team

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Aug 20, 2002 11:38 am

My point is that there should be no benefit to the team in the long term from handicap rolls. The mechanism is irrelevant.

Ideally the handicap table should work well enough that it does balance teams out so that even 50~100 point differences don't matter for the game.

I can see that you may want to accelerate team growth, so that new teams entering a league can catch up, but I don't think that this ought to be the purpose of the handicap table.

Ian

Colin · Post by **Colin** » Tue Aug 20, 2002 10:30 pm

I would say to get rid of the new handicap table altogether. I found nothing wrong with the "Gold Edition" Special plays tables. I don't know why everything had to be scrapped from that edition, that could have been saved and used with the old 3e handicap table (no. of cards = no. of special play rolls) Just a thought.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Tue Aug 20, 2002 11:29 pm

Well, IMO the Handicap Table is a much better system than the old cards:-

The lower TR team can never lose out as they could with the card system... how many times can you remember the High TR team getting the best cards (and rolling a 6 for extra ones!)

All the Game effects are known up front. Hence both coaches can plan a game around what they know. The cards add a lot of chance and luck.... feel cheated when you have played well only for the one MI card that can screw you being turned over?

That said as a number of previous posters have mentioned there are some results that are too powerful and some too weak. The playing field should be levelled. One thing though, reducing the chances of getting the more powerful effects to me does not reduce the impact. The effect should be reduced not the frequency.

Finally, although the Handicap Table does make a game between a high TR team and a low TR team closer, invariably the high TR team is still favoured to win. Since they have all the skills - Guard, Block, Accurate etc to make the plays, without the skills to defeat them - Guard, Shadowing, Pass Block, Tackle etc. Thus the high TR team tends to win most of these games... and in addition, earns more than the average in SPPs - the lower TR team will earn less SPPs than average. I am not advocating giving out lots more MVPs... I think that is wrong too. However, there is certainly an argument for giving them something extra. Perhaps if the Handicap Table gave out a number of additional skills to the team (for the game only of course!) - this may help them earn some SPPs during the game. So for example for every Handicap Roll you get, you could give 1 player a normal skill - NB no stacking of all these skills. If picking skills is too much - roll randomly for player and skill. [this may too much if some of the more powerful Handicap Rolls are not reduced in power].

Just an idea... Shoot.....

Dave

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:21 am

Interesting Idea Dave!

might have some merit, although just for that game yes?

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 10:29 am

Of course - for the match only... otherwise it would be a great way of obtaining skills for low TR teams!

Dave

Post by **JenniRP70** » Wed Aug 21, 2002 11:17 am

I'm not too keen on increasing the number of temporary effects during a game. I'd prefer to see lower TR teams getting more money and having an oppertunity to buy SPP's via some sort of training process which was harder to get for higher TR teams. The amount of money spent on training represents the severity of the training program.

For example, each 10K of GP's buys 10 points to distribute amongst your team, but for varying levels of TR, the maximum amount of money you can spend is reduced. teams below a very low TR (can't think of values at the moement) get unlimited spending, whilst teams above say 200TR can only spend 10K. I'm sure if somebody else likes this idea they can come up with a suitable table. Not sure how to allocate the points, coaches descretion or random!!!!!!!

Anyway, its a basic idea that I've just thrown together in the last 5 minutes.

JohnnyP