"New Idea" Playtest Set

Got some ideas for rules? Maybe a skill change or something completely different!!! Tell us here.

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Acerak
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"New Idea" Playtest Set

Post by Acerak »

Ok, everyone. Here's the list of playtest rules I'm going to use regarding the "no INJ mods" from the "New Idea" thread. If you want to see the evolution of that idea, go to the General Chat forum. It's too long to recap here.

In reviewing this idea over the last couple months, I have come to one conclusion. I'm not going to be happy with the idea if most of the results do the same, boring, thing. In other words, we don't need three skills (POn, Claw, MB) that all do the same thing (i.e., add bonuses to AV rolls), no matter how well they mix. (Or "how poorly." Recall that Claw and POn do not combine in the current rules.) What I'd like is a system in which all the mechanics are different without being terribly ornate. Marble is good.

So, here are the list of changes, with very short notes (usually regarding knockdown numbers) after each. I'll follow them up with a list of general playtest issues to watch.

Blocking Skills
Claw: A player with a claw may roll 3D6 instead of 2D6 when rolling an armor roll caused by a block. His coach may pick the best two results to use for the armor roll.

* No skill vs AV8: 27.8% AV breaks
* Old Claw vs AV8: 58.3% AV breaks
* New Claw vs AV8: 52.3% AV breaks

* No skill vs AV8: 4.6% CAS rate
* Old Claw vs AV8: 9.7% CAS rate
* New Claw vs AV8: 8.7% CAS rate

Mighty Blow: A player with this skill may add +1 when rolling an armor roll caused by a block.

* No skill vs AV8: 27.8% AV breaks
* Old MB vs AV8: 41.7% AV breaks
* New MB vs AV8: 41.7% AV breaks

* No skill vs AV8: 4.6% CAS rate
* Old MB vs AV8: 10.0% CAS rate
* New MB vs AV8: 6.9% CAS rate

Piling On: The player may use this skill after he has knocked down an opponent as a result of a block, but only if he failed to beat the victim's armor. The player may fall on top of the victim, allowing him a new armor roll with the following modifiers:

* Stunty: +1
* Man-sized (non-Stunty, non-Big Guy): +2
* Big Guy: +3

No other modifiers apply to this roll. For obvious reasons, a player who uses this skill is also knocked over. Don't make an armor roll for him, however, as his fall is cushioned by the victim! Note that the piling on player is knocked over in his own square rather than that of his victim. (It is assumed that he rolls back there after flattening his opponent.) Piling On does not cause a turnover unless the piling on player is holding the ball.


* No skill, ST3 vs AV8: 27.8% AV breaks
* Old POn, ST3 vs AV8: 72.2% AV breaks
* New POn, ST3 vs AV8: 69.9% AV breaks

* No skill, ST3 vs AV8: 4.6% CAS rate
* Old POn, ST3 vs AV8: 12.0% CAS rate
* New POn, ST3 vs AV8: 11.7% CAS rate

Pro: Note that Pro can be used to re-roll AV (but not INJ) as per the New Idea thread. Note also that the rates below assume that the player does not have to use Pro earlier in the turn, so numbers are slightly inflated compared to damage skills that are always available on a knockdown.

* No skill vs AV8: 27.8% AV breaks
* Old Pro vs AV8: 27.8% AV breaks
* New Pro vs AV8: 37.8% AV breaks

* No skill vs AV8: 4.6% CAS rate
* Old Pro vs AV8: 4.6% CAS rate
* New Pro vs AV8: 6.3% CAS rate

Razor Sharp Fangs: The player's fangs frequently turn minor scrapes into gaping wounds that require immediate attention on the sidelines. If this player commits a block that results in an injury roll of stunned, roll a D6. On a roll of 4 or more, the result is treated as a KO instead.

* No skill vs AV8: 11.6% "off the field" rate
* Old RSF vs AV8: 20.0% "off the field" rate
* New RSF vs AV8: 19.7% "off the field"

* No skill vs AV8: 4.6% CAS rate
* Old RSF vs AV8: 11.6% CAS rate
* New RSF vs AV8: 4.6% CAS rate

Star Player Points: A player is awarded a casualty if he pushes an opponent into the crowd and it results in a casualty.

Team Re-rolls: Note that Team Re-rolls can be used to re-roll AV (but not INJ) as per the New Idea thread.

Fouling
Foul Action: You no longer receive +1 to the AV roll for making the foul unless the fouled player is already stunned.

Dirty Player: A player with this skill has trained long and hard to learn every dirty trick in the book. If he fouls an opposing player, add +2 to the armor roll. Note that the player may use the skill only if he makes the foul, not if he is lending an assist.

IGMEOY: The Ref Roll remains a constant 6. The IGMEOY counter is not used.

Sneaky Player: The player is very adept at getting his foot in when the other team isn't looking. A player with this General skill may assist a foul even if he is in the tackle zone of an opposing player.

Star Player Points: A player is awarded a casualty if he causes one with a foul.

General
Stunty: The +1 to injury mod is removed. The passing range restriction remains.

Goblins & Halflings: Reduce the Goblin's AV to 6.

Skinks: Skinks are no longer Stunty. They have access to both General and Agility skills.

Miscellaneous (non-INJ related)
Diving Tackle: The player may use this skill after an opposing player attempts to dodge out of his tackle zone. Place the player prone in the square vacated by the opposing player, but do not make an armor roll for him. The opposing coach must then roll two dice for the dodge roll and use the lower result. If a player attempts to leave the tackle zones of multiple players with this skill, only one may attempt a diving tackle.

Jump Up: A prone player with this skill may stand up for free at the end of the opposing team's turn, but before his own team turn begins.

Leader: The player is a natural leader and inspires the rest of the team while he is on the field. Having such a player on the team allows his coach to take a Leader Re-roll counter at the start of the match and place it next to his dugout. The counter may be used to re-roll any one dice roll made by a player in that team during the turn, so long as one or more players with the trait are on the field at the time. Normal restrictions against re-rolling injury rolls and re-rolling the same die roll more than once apply. Note that a team may only ever have one Leader re-roll no matter how many players have the trait, and that you can use a Leader Re-roll and a Team Re-roll in the same turn.

Trophy Re-rolls: These function exactly as Leader Re-rolls. You can use them once per game to re-roll any one die roll, and you can use a Team Re-roll in the same turn.

Very Long Legs: Add +1 to the dice roll whenever the player attempts to intercept the football. In addition, opposing players may not use the Safe Throw skill against this player - he's simply too tall to avoid!

-----

Ok. I think I got everything. Those of you interested only in the no-IJ mods should feel free to ignore the Miscellaneous items. And don't change Skinks if you really don't want to do it. But I think you'll be missing out ;)

Things to watch for:

* Mighty Blow: It gives the same AV breaks, but will it be enough?

* Fouls: Possible IGMEOY at +1 to the Ref Roll if fouling is a bit too advantageous.

* Stunties: If they need to go off the field more frequently, allow opponents to count an INJ roll of 7 as a KO. Alternately, -1 on all attempts to recover from KOs.

Cheers!

-Chet

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Post by Acerak »

Forgot something for Claw: If the player ever tries to handle the ball, roll 2D6 and use the lower result. Yeah, it's a good tool to have when rolling an extra die for AV...but it's not so convenient when handling the ball!

Oh - and you can use Leader once per game, not once per half.

-Chet

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So no word on Jump-up-pass block

Post by voyagers_uk »

This would be a good time to try-out that suggestion too, don't you think?

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Post by Marcus »

Diving Tackle questions:

DT is declared before the dodge is made? Or is the dodge made, then another roll is made if the opponent decides to use DT?

Are rerolls made with a TRR or Dodge made with the same 2 dice roll?

Marcus

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Post by Acerak »

Marcus asked a few DT questions.

DT is declared before the dodge is made? Or is the dodge made, then another roll is made if the opponent decides to use DT?

It's declared after the opposing coach moves the model into the target square, but before he rolls the dice. Sorry, I could easily have made that clearer. Long posts induce wandering minds and all that.

Are rerolls made with a TRR or Dodge made with the same 2 dice roll?

Absolutely. All modifiers apply on a re-roll, as per any other re-roll.

-Chet

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Post by Furelli »

That is a comprehensive list of changes. Will you be using these in a league that you're running or one that you are playing in?

Amazingly the only thing I disagree with is the Skinks. I say leave them as stunties and reduce thier AV to 6. This would leave the Lizardmen as a true Big Un and Little Un team.

Just my 2cents.

Furelli.

P.S. Good luck with the playtest and keep us updated. :lol:

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Post by Acerak »

That is a comprehensive list of changes. Will you be using these in a league that you're running or one that you are playing in?

Yes. Two, actually.

-Chet

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Post by DoubleSkulls »

I suggested this in the other thread on DT, but I'll post it here too.

How about making DT apply to leaps as well? That helps compensate for its reduced effectiveness against dodge, while introducing something available to normal teams to help stop leapers (War Dancers :pissed: )

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Post by Toby »

Chet, I would like to ask you to include a new Hose Rule we just introduced after a cool Game:

It's called "Tackling Action"

When a player declares a "Dodge Move" the opposing team's coach is allowed to declare a "Tackling Action" for one of the payers who's "Tackle Zone" is left. Only the player who takes the "Tackling Action" may use the skills Tackle, Diving Tackle, Prehensile Tail, Tentacles, (Jump Up, Mighty Blow, Claw, Razor Sharp Fangs).

If the "Tackling Action" results in a casualtie, the player that declared the tackling earns 2 Star Player Points.

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Re: "New Idea" Playtest Set

Post by neoliminal »

Acerak wrote:
Blocking Skills
Claw: A player with a claw may roll 3D6 instead of 2D6 when rolling an armor roll caused by a block. His coach may pick the best two results to use for the armor roll.
This is a totally new mechanic and I have to say I don't like it. Why create a new mechanic when there are plenty of decent ones already in the game.
Piling On: The player may use this skill after he has knocked down an opponent as a result of a block, but only if he failed to beat the victim's armor. The player may fall on top of the victim, allowing him a new armor roll with the following modifiers:

* Stunty: +1
* Man-sized (non-Stunty, non-Big Guy): +2
* Big Guy: +3

No other modifiers apply to this roll. For obvious reasons, a player who uses this skill is also knocked over. Don't make an armor roll for him, however, as his fall is cushioned by the victim! Note that the piling on player is knocked over in his own square rather than that of his victim. (It is assumed that he rolls back there after flattening his opponent.) Piling On does not cause a turnover unless the piling on player is holding the ball.
Why bother with the Stunty/Mansized/Big Guy bonuses? The extra re-roll is enough, IMO. Removing it would be simplier too.


Razor Sharp Fangs: The player's fangs frequently turn minor scrapes into gaping wounds that require immediate attention on the sidelines. If this player commits a block that results in an injury roll of stunned, roll a D6. On a roll of 4 or more, the result is treated as a KO instead.
I find this mechanic completely unappealing.
Dirty Player: A player with this skill has trained long and hard to learn every dirty trick in the book. If he fouls an opposing player, add +2 to the armor roll. Note that the player may use the skill only if he makes the foul, not if he is lending an assist.
I've been thinking about Dirty Player and I've come to this concept: DP should not affect how well you can hurt another player, but rather should only reduce your odds of getting caught.
IGMEOY: The Ref Roll remains a constant 6. The IGMEOY counter is not used.
I strongly disagree with this.
Sneaky Player: The player is very adept at getting his foot in when the other team isn't looking. A player with this General skill may assist a foul even if he is in the tackle zone of an opposing player.
No need for this skill, IMO.
Star Player Points: A player is awarded a casualty if he causes one with a foul.
I absolutely oppose this idea.
Miscellaneous (non-INJ related)
Diving Tackle: The player may use this skill after an opposing player attempts to dodge out of his tackle zone. Place the player prone in the square vacated by the opposing player, but do not make an armor roll for him. The opposing coach must then roll two dice for the dodge roll and use the lower result. If a player attempts to leave the tackle zones of multiple players with this skill, only one may attempt a diving tackle.
Again, another new mechanic.
Jump Up: A prone player with this skill may stand up for free at the end of the opposing team's turn, but before his own team turn begins.
This makes no sense to me. Keep as few actions on your opponenets turn as possible.

I've deleted the things I agree with, obviously.

John -

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Post by Toby »

I got my eye on you:
+1 to the penalty roll 6=the player is sent off
Dirty Player:
-1 to the penalty roll
Fouling Casualtie:
2 SPP


Jump Up:
the player may stand up for free at the beginning of his own teams turn

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Post by Acerak »

This is a totally new mechanic and I have to say I don't like it. Why create a new mechanic when there are plenty of decent ones already in the game.

If by "plenty of decent ones" you mean "adding yet another bonus to AV that we can't use if we have other bonuses to AV," I agree with you. Otherwise, it seems very, very simple to understand. You could even make the extra die a different color to represent your Claw.

Why bother with the Stunty/Mansized/Big Guy bonuses? The extra re-roll is enough, IMO. Removing it would be simplier too.

The numbers would be just about worthless in exchange for going prone. Whether removing it is "simpler" is not the point. I could replace the current 2D6 AV roll with a D6 roll, converting AV7 to AV3, AV8 to AV4, and AV9 to AV5. That would be "simpler," and the numbers would be reasonably constant, but I doubt you'd say it's better on its own merit.

As for Dirty Players only reducing the odds of getting caught...well, I think that's a poor idea. It's called "Dirty Player," not "Sneaky Player." good luck removing those Big Guys from the pitch.

-Chet

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Post by Furelli »

Chet and Neo seem to have a lot of disagreements over rules changes. I think it may be interesting to see a copy of the minutes for the forthcoming rules review.

Later.
Furelli.

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Post by neoliminal »

Acerak wrote:This is a totally new mechanic and I have to say I don't like it. Why create a new mechanic when there are plenty of decent ones already in the game.

If by "plenty of decent ones" you mean "adding yet another bonus to AV that we can't use if we have other bonuses to AV," I agree with you. Otherwise, it seems very, very simple to understand. You could even make the extra die a different color to represent your Claw.
No, that's definately not what I meant.

Look, you justify this change by saying it simplifies the Injury Roll and standardizes/simplifies the system. Then you invent a new mechanic because you can't figure out how to put Claw back in the game. We have models that have Claws, so we need a mechanic to go with them, but we have plenty of thing that affect Armour/Injury already. Make Claw do something else.
Why bother with the Stunty/Mansized/Big Guy bonuses? The extra re-roll is enough, IMO. Removing it would be simplier too.

The numbers would be just about worthless in exchange for going prone.
If you could re-roll armour with a TRR, then you're right, it's not worth it, but if the only way to RR Armour was with Piling On, then it would be worthwhile.
Whether removing it is "simpler" is not the point. I could replace the current 2D6 AV roll with a D6 roll, converting AV7 to AV3, AV8 to AV4, and AV9 to AV5. That would be "simpler," and the numbers would be reasonably constant, but I doubt you'd say it's better on its own merit.
That's a nice straw man. The two ideas don't compare. Removing the additional idea of modifiers based on size (a concept that appears no where else in the rules) and changing an existing rule for armour rolls are in two very different leagues.

Think about the clay and the marble.
As for Dirty Players only reducing the odds of getting caught...well, I think that's a poor idea. It's called "Dirty Player," not "Sneaky Player." good luck removing those Big Guys from the pitch.
Reading the description of Dirty Player I see "A player with this skill has trained long and hard to learn every dirty trick in the book." Maybe I'm missing the part where it says "His main job is Big Guy removal."

Once again there's no need to make this skill one which affect Armour or Injury Rolls.

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Post by neoliminal »

Furelli wrote:Chet and Neo seem to have a lot of disagreements over rules changes. I think it may be interesting to see a copy of the minutes for the forthcoming rules review.
Your inbox isn't big enough.

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