Nastier Fouls, better SWs, better Stab

[mattgslater]

Background: Please take I-IV as axiomatic. This is the direction I'm going.

I) We like it bloody and miss the days when some teams would farm with fouls. That said, 3e fouling rules were too brutal. I want a happy medium. This is an exercise in aesthetics as much as it is an exercise in balance. We have a lot of houserules already, so keeping the volume down is not a priority.

II) We think LRB5 is mostly brilliant, but goes the wrong way in a few places, like money and blood (we want more of both so they cancel each other out). Winnings are a little richer than in LRB5 (about 7.5k/match more to start, with slightly less impact from spiraling expenses: 300k increments).

III) For balance reasons, I want to make SWs and Stabbers seem like a better deal at current prices. I don't want to go into the Options and Inducements rules here, but cheap stars really get the shaft on price, so should be improved a touch, and while there are more on-roster SWs and Stabbers running around, they often come with a very high opportunity cost.

IV) Bribes (and lots of other inducements that aren't cards in LRB5) are now a card deck. The odds drop badly from 5/6 for a save, but often you get something else when it doesn't work, and it's still well above 50/50. Each team gets one free draw per match, and it can be a bribe.

So... A-E are the proposed fouling, SW and Stab rules.

A) Fouls: You may "assist" your own foul, providing a +1 bonus if you're not in an enemy TZ. Assists must be calculated before rolling. If you're "ejected," you're "subject to a penalty roll" by your oppo instead. 1d6.
1: Warning. Turn-over, but that's all.
2-3: Grudge. Turn-over, oppo draws a "Bribe the Ref" card and may play it immediately (there are 7 or 8 cards (out of 26) that allow you to change/RR a penalty roll, including the one that occasioned the draw, so this could be an ejection or ???).
4-5: Ejected. Turn-over, ejected.
6: Ejected and Grudge.

B) Skills: Dirty Player adds to both AV and Injury rolls. Sneaky Git works like Guard on fouls you don't make yourself, so your assist can't be pulled off if you're not the one fouling (assists must be calculated before you roll). Piling On works on any AV or Injury roll against an opponent in your TZ: that is, it's reworded so it doesn't say anything about blocks or knockdowns (and hence works on fouls). Stab yields a penalty roll if doubles are rolled on Injury (but not Armor).

C) Re-Rolls. You may re-roll Armor or Injury rolls occasioned by a roll you made for your player (not a failed AG roll, for instance) but if you do, you are subject to a penalty if the new result is doubles, even if the roll was generated as the result of a block (the Unnecessary Roughness rule). If you're subject to a Penalty roll on the original AV or Inj roll, a Re-Roll won't save you from it (though it might change the outcome: if you foul and roll snake-eyes, re-roll and get 11, you penetrate armor and are subject to a penalty).

D) Secret Weapons. At the end of each drive, each SW occasions a penalty roll. However, the opponent cannot draw any cards as a result (so it's 4+ to be ejected each drive).

E) Dirty Casualties. This is a new column for SPPs. Dirty Casualties are looked down on, but those who rack them up get adoration from their fans, dread from their opponents and a wide berth from the Ref. As a result, any player who scores a casualty by use of a foul, a Chainsaw or Bomb, or the Stab skill gains one DC, which is worth one SPP. This really helps Zombies a lot.

Here are my questions. Please don't give me an overall impression. I'm looking to tinker, so please bring a hammer and not a bulldozer.

1: Does this look like a fun happy medium between 3rd edition and LRB5?

2: Are any specific aspects (except E, which is non-negotiable) problematic? Specifically, I'm inquiring about the mods to SG and PO, but if you see anything else, it's fair game. One question on E: Bombs. Should I keep DCs off of them or just jack up the price? Or can I do neither?

3: Is C too complex?

4: Is A too soft on crime? Is one of these better? They're progressively harsher than A. My real worry is secret weapons. A2 was my original plan, but the one above seemed more "intuitive" because the split is at 4, not 3. Does that matter?

A1: 2d6.
2-4: Warning.
5-6: Grudge.
7-9: Ejected.
10-12: Both.

A2: 1d6.
1: Warning.
2: Grudge.
3-5: Ejected.
6: Both.

A3: 2d6
2-4: Warning.
5: Grudge.
6-9: Ejected.
10-12: Both.

[Daefaroth]

First my Bulldozer wants to take a shot before I get in with the hammer. Do you guys really hate elves so much that you have to rewrite the rules to favor bashy teams (even more than they already are)?

Ahem, Hammer Time <where did I put those parachute pants from when I was in junior high?>

A: I think assisting your own foul is going to be too confusing, I think players may (intentionally or not) treat it as a blanket +1 mod to fouls, and not pay attention to TZs. You mention 7 or 8 cards out of 26, a broad overview of the other 18 or 19 would help us understand what the die roll really means. A roughly 50% chance of not being ejected after the doubles will make people fould happy, but as that seems to be the point I have nothing to add there.

B: Again making fouling better... Be careful with the wording on Piling On, how you wrote it there I would argue that I can pile onto an opponent that fails a Dodge roll into one of my tackle zones. With all the other skills you are increasing, it cracks me up that you are nerfing stab.

C: Again increasing the power of bashy teams over AG teams. Based on another of your threads, treasury in your league will count towards team rating. So, bashy teams will have no reason to not max out rerolls, as the cash they are hoarding counts against them. So, now that the bashy teams have 8 rerolls, they can use them to decimate any non-bashy teams.

D: Yet again Go Carnage...

E: See point D.

To answer your specific questions:

1: No, neither 3rd Ed nor LRB 5 was this bash happy.

2: See specific points above. As per Bombs, after everything else you've changed getting 1 SPP for Bombs doesn't concern me.

3: Possibly, I suspect it will take a while for people to come to terms with doubles on a rerolled block AV/Inj roll being the same as on the foul.

4: I'd say that it is too lenient, but relative to everything else it is really up to you and your league mates.

Final point:

I suspect that by inplementing the rules as written above you are going to; A) shift Elves (all), Amazons, and Skaven to Tier 2. B) shift Vampires to Tier 3. and C) Make Halflings and Ogres unplayable.

In short, it looks as if this is going to shift the game heavily in favor of the bash teams. Of course it appears that this is your intent, so have fun with it. You might find that it isn't even worth putting the ball on the board, as TDs are probably going to be made by whatever is left standing. If this works for you, great I say go for it; but you won't find me lining up to join your league.

I hope there was enough hammer work there to forgive me for the bulldozer parts.

[mattgslater]

First my Bulldozer wants to take a shot before I get in with the hammer. Do you guys really hate elves so much that you have to rewrite the rules to favor bashy teams (even more than they already are)?

We have a lot of vocal old-timers who miss the bloody old days. Funny enough, they're also the only ones who coach elves. I definitely agree that I'm adding blood to the rules. I'm also adding money and decreasing the proportion of kills (25% of what were kills are now SIs). Does that help? Part of my problem is that our skill gap (a big fat one: masters and novices, with nothing in between) will mask the outcome of whatever I do for a season or two.

A: I think assisting your own foul is going to be too confusing, I think players may (intentionally or not) treat it as a blanket +1 mod to fouls, and not pay attention to TZs. You mention 7 or 8 cards out of 26, a broad overview of the other 18 or 19 would help us understand what the die roll really means. A roughly 50% chance of not being ejected after the doubles will make people fould happy, but as that seems to be the point I have nothing to add there.

On the first part, my veterans bitch and whine any time they foul with a pulled-off assist, and every time they foul they let their opponent know how much they miss the inherent +1 ("I'm fouling you at +2... would have been +4 in the old days"). They're a bunch of prima donnas, but it's them or the unwashed masses at the game store, so I put up with it. On the second part, with card probabilities, the total list is the subject for another thread, but I'll post the rough when I get the next round of kinks worked out. On the third, do you like any of the alternative penalty tables I have down to decrease the odds of non-ejection? I think that 50/50 thing is a bit too lenient, but don't forget to include the value of an enemy card draw when calculating ejection odds in your head.

B: Again making fouling better... Be careful with the wording on Piling On, how you wrote it there I would argue that I can pile onto an opponent that fails a Dodge roll into one of my tackle zones.

Thanks for the warning. I've been playing with different wordings, and I'll definitely make sure to work around that. It wouldn't have any effect when dodging into the clear in any case, but I still think something should be done if it can be done neatly.

With all the other skills you are increasing, it cracks me up that you are nerfing stab.

I'm just nerfing it to beef it (see E). If it doesn't need the nerf to take the buff, then I'll change the rule. If it does demand a nerf but this one is too much I can just play with the costing, making Assassins a better buy.

C: Again increasing the power of bashy teams over AG teams. Based on another of your threads, treasury in your league will count towards team rating. So, bashy teams will have no reason to not max out rerolls, as the cash they are hoarding counts against them. So, now that the bashy teams have 8 rerolls, they can use them to decimate any non-bashy teams.

An attempt to recapture a 3rd-editiony feel. Maybe an ill-advised one? What do others think on that one? I'm not so much worried about maxing out on re-rolls as our fixed seasons mean that it's very hard to get in more than 12 or 13 games until we start a second-season league, so it'll be unlikely that any team will ever get to 6RR, and 5 will be a year or more away.

1: No, neither 3rd Ed nor LRB 5 was this bash happy.

This is the one place where your analysis doesn't echo my concerns: I thought I'd hear "no, it's not a good balance because..." but I wasn't expecting to hear "no, it's bloodier than 3rd ed." In 3rd ed., foul casualties counted for 2SPP, AV+Inj could be RR'ed without fear, assists (including your own) could never be pulled off, it was about equally hard to get caught (a flat 5/36) with no other range of penalties, Dirty Player added +2 to AV and Inj, and Mighty Blow could be used on a foul if you didn't have Dirty Player. LRB5 certainly isn't as bash-happy as my rules, but even if they don't represent a happy medium (more advice/stones please), they're clearly on the spectrum, I think. Do others echo Daefaroth's concern there? That is, not just that it's too bloody, but that it's even bloodier than 3rd? That certainly wasn't my objective.

Final point:

I suspect that by inplementing the rules as written above you are going to; A) shift Elves (all), Amazons, and Skaven to Tier 2. B) shift Vampires to Tier 3. and C) Make Halflings and Ogres unplayable.

If you're right about the degree, I need to do some tweakin' (I'll stipulate the direction -- these rules do help bash teams). Unfortunately, that's the sort of thing that I can't figure out on my own, because our elfy coaches are all way more experienced than our non-elfy coaches. So we'd blithely play along until somebody else decides they want to play elves and my sloppy rules (if that's what they are) will come home to roost. So since I can't properly test it, all input is good input.

Thanks for the advice, Daefaroth. And, yeah, I can forgive the bulldozing, as long as you bring the specifics as you did.

[Marlow]

You say you have a mix of Veteran and Newby players? Not sure the ratio but the way you present this (and the new Game Setup) could be really confusing. I would also want to make changes as simple as possible to avoid confusion.

A) I think 'assisting' your own foul is silly. Just give it the inherant +1 for fouling and be done with it. Rolling a dice and drawing cards sounds confusing. Just stick with "Sent off on Doubles" at most add "add oppoent draws one card".

B) I like the DP & SG changes. Piling on does need to say "on your turn" otherwise I am taking Tackle and crushing everyone who falls down next to me. As for STAB see D.

C) Again, just make it simple - Team Rerolls can be used for AV/Inj rolls.

D) Secret Weapon and Stab players are sent off on a 2D6 penalty roll of 7+ at the end of the drive. Chainsaws add +3, Stab -3.

E) I would say 1 SPP per Bomb limit otherwise a lucky bomb into a Cage could get me 3 or more SPP's!

1. Seems ok...
2. Listed above
3. Yes
4. Yes.

[mattgslater]

You say you have a mix of Veteran and Newby players? Not sure the ratio but the way you present this (and the new Game Setup) could be really confusing. I would also want to make changes as simple as possible to avoid confusion.

Yeah. I think Skills are the only place where I want a bunch of errata. Otherwise, I'm either going to leave a section alone or rework it from the ground (like in this case).

Someone was asking about my Bribe the Ref cards? I'll post it in a new thread.

[stormmaster1]

i like the idea of a warning: turnover but no player loss. This would have worked better with LRB 4 though.

[TalonBay]

If it's any help, as a DE player I'm reading the various options and thinking I'd rather be using my LRB5 roster. If the aim is to limit the DE's (and also change them slightly with the S access for a couple) then I think it sounds reasonable.

[Kyrel]

You have some interesting ideas, and generally I don't have all that many objections to them.

A) I sort of like the "ejection table", but just let people have the generic +1 for making a foul. Keeps it simpler. With regards to penalties, I'll pitch in with a variant I and a bunch of friends will be testing out. It's essentially the 3rd ed. fouling rules, but the player gets discovered both if he rolls a double for the AV roll, and if he rolls equal to or less than the bonus to penetrate the armour. I.e. a foul roll at 2D6+5 against armour will get the player ejected on a roll of a double or 2-5. Basically the more people jumping on the same prone player, the more blatant the foul becomes, and the better the odds are that the ref will see the foul.

B) As others have stated rgd. Piling On.

C) A little complex for me, but I can't see any real harm in this.

D) No objections. Personally I prefer the 3rd ed. variant penalty rolls, but each his own.

E) No objections on my part. My friends and I play with the 3rd ed. variant where you get 2 SPP for a Cas, regardless of it being from a Foul, SW or other source (not from players being pushed off the pitch though), so your 1 SPP for a "dirty casualty" works fine for me.


Have fun people.

[mattgslater]

OK. Here's what I'm taking from all your great advice, or at least the first draft of what I'm taking from it.

A) Fouls: I think you guys are right that "you can assist yourself" is a bit complex. If I add the native +1, it means you're looking for 1 assist vs. AV7 and 3 vs. AV9, as opposed to 2 or 4 right now. Frankly, since I could go either way on this, I think I'm just going to drop it. That lets me drop the pre-rolling assists bit and keeps Dirty Player's value up (as that free assist matters a lot more when you need one more than you can get easily). So fouling will be harder than 3rd ed., in fact like LRB5 plus the skill changes.

A) Fouls, part II: I'm trying to figure out whether I want the table to go 1/2/3-5/6 or 1/2-3/4-5/6 (that is, the second alternative "A2" or the one at the top of the thread). I put in those 7 cards (see Bribe the Ref thread) to simulate the former effect on the 1/2-3/4-5/6 table, which just "feels" more natural (gamers are used to seeing a break at 3-4 on a d6, and the perms lay out all nice and symmetrical). I could take that mechanic ("play this on the effect that caused you to draw this card") out of the card deck if it's confusing and just go to 1/2/3-5/6. Maybe I should.

B) Forget the Stab-for-penalty bit. I think the options rules (your assassin comes with opportunity cost) do enough damage.

B2) I think the fix for PO comes not in the skill wording, but in a clarification that if a failed AG roll yields an AV roll, the opponent is rolling for the moving player, not for any player who occasioned an AG roll. Then the PO text can cite that rule in preventing PO on a dodge (which would be rare in any case, as if the dodger leaves your TZ and falls, you can't PO).

C) Y'all seem to think this one is too complex. It's my darling: that itself might be an indicator that I should kill it. It'd be easy to say "you can re-roll AV or Injury rolls, but that wosn't save you from a Penalty on the original roll, and if you're fouling the re-roll can get you busted too." I don't know how much less complex that is. Or I could scrap it. I think I still like it enough to keep it, but if it becomes a problem I'll just go to LRB5. I don't want people gratuitously RR'ing Armor rolls, but as an option for the desparate it sounds like fun.

D) If I keep the 1/2-3/4-5/6 table, I think I'm going to shorten this rule to: "If you field a SW, your opponent may roll on the Penalty table for that player at the end of the drive."

E) No changes.

[DoubleSkulls]

I'd probably want to change two things immediately.

1) Sneaky Git is just pointless with those rules. Maybe make it an ejection reroll or keep the current version, only roll for ejection if armour broken.

2) Grudge - I'd probably let the opposing team keep the card rather than play it immediately (I'm not really sure what the impact of playing it immediately is supposed to be). The concept being that the ref saw something, but not enough, so is now being a bit more favourable towards the opposition. If your bribe deck included cards like automatically sending opponents off even better.

Other bits -

C - Would it be simpler to allow Pro to be used on armour/injury rolls when the player blocks/fouls and forget about the extra sending off?

D - 4+ sendings off are fine for most of them but I'm concerned about death roller that it might be too good.

E - I really don't like this at all just because it encourages arbitrary fouling at the end of every turn for SPPs - and making the stars of the team the dedicated foulers.

[mattgslater]

Ah. I figured out how to buff Sneaky Git, rather than adding a second power (@ Ian: I meant "in addition," as the Penalty Table weakens SG significantly so I want to improve it). It doesn't involve modifying the skill! Rather, it involves the order of actions in a foul. Step 4 is the salient change (6 being the other one).

1) Declare Foul action.
2) Move player as per Move action.
3) If player is adjacent to prone opponent at end of move, he may foul.
4) Roll AV. Players may assist or apply skills if able, after roll.
5) Roll injury. Players may apply skills if able.
6) Roll penalty, if applicable.

So now, vs. an AV8 opponent, a SG player with 3 assists could break armor on a 6. But on double 3 or double 4, he could think better, not penetrate armor after all, and avoid the penalty! So SG lets him avoid 2 perms of getting caught entirely, and then lets him trade 2 more penalty perms for 2 of his 26 successes.

Does that work? My only problem is that I was starting to see how to do this by only rewriting the "referee" rules, adding an SPP category and putting in a couple of skill errata, when this idea comes along. If I have to rewrite the whole thing, I'll have the out-for-blood contingent trying to do even more than this.