LBR6 - not enough changes?

[Lamanzer]

Hello,

I have read a lot of topics and I have a question about LBR6

A very good job was done since LBR3.
LBR6 rules contain very good things (kick off table changes for example).

But it seems teams were not “patched” (I’m not sure of this word) like they should be. Changes seem to be not “ambitious”. Some teams were overpowered in LBR5 and were not changed (Orcs, dwarfs, for example... A lot of people are agree about this)


Does anyone know why?

[Tim]

I don't think that there's a common agreement that Dwarf or Orcs are generally overpowered. Also i think the playtest numbers don't prove it. The strongest team in the numbers was wood elfs and they get an adjustment to the catchers. Dwarfs got a slight nerf in LRB6 with the higher RR cost and Loner on the Deathroller.

All Dwarfs or Orcs needs to keep them on the ground is an occasional game against a developed chaos team stuffed with Claw/MB

[DoubleSkulls]

The numbers have never justified Orcs as anything other than middle of the road. In leagues and tournaments they don't seem to do better than they ought.

Dwarves got a couple of minor nerfs (more expensive rerolls, loner on death roller), as did Woodies and Undead to bring them back into line.

[Joemanji]

Some were less minor than others.

[Lamanzer]

Ok, what about Chaos with an high team value? (MB/block/claws)
They roll over everything, aren't they?

and they were up with LBR6! (Horns)

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I will not speak about tournament, because they are house rules
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LBR6 changes were choosen only with "Numbers"? What about experience of veteran coachs?

I think league "Numbers" are difficult to read for several reasons. (Coachings qualities, new players who often play rough team to survive, Number of games setted for leagues, etc...)

I am maybe wrong, but good coachs that I know are agree with: orc, dwarf, chaos at high level, are overpowered.
And when they played one of these teams, they often rolled over the league, because all other teams are smashed after several games.
For them these teams are "easy teams".

Regards.
LM

[Grumbledook]

experienced caoch feedback was collected as well by reading various large BB forums, including francebloodbowl if you post there

Claw has been nurfed compared to older rules being useless vs AV7 and less (though not from LRB5 to 6 but from 4 to 5)

Also there are ways to counter all that, Guard makes it harder for them to get blocks in. Dodge and Fend minimised knockdowns and blocks. Wrestle means they have to blitz if taken prone. You can foul them and hit them back as well.

So the main teams that don't like that will be dwarfs and orcs, the two teams you mentioned didn't get affected much! ;]

[nyarlathotep]

Ok, what about Chaos with an high team value? (MB/block/claws)
They roll over everything, aren't they?

and they were up with LBR6! (Horns)

Chaos still remains somewhat challenging at high TV, mainly because of the (relatively) high cost of the players on the team as well as the (relatively) low start point of spiralling expenses. This means a chaos player will need to focus on winning games rather than steamrolling his opponents. Sure, Chaos might have a couple warriors with that killing combo, but if he concentrates solely on murder he'll be really sorry when he goes up against a team with some wrestle and dirty player.

[Tim]

Plus stacking up on Block/MB/Claw players will not help you much when facing teams with lots of blodgers. You need tackle with it to be really effective against all teams. That means several 4 skill beastmen ... talking about 50+ games teams here. This will happen in FUMBBL or the Cyanide game, but not really in table top leagues.

[DoubleSkulls]

Go and read a 40+ page thread on Cyanide.

There doesn't appear to be much evidence that high end Chaos teams loaded with Claw/MB win more games than Orcs or Dwarves at the same level.

[plasmoid]

Hi Lamanzer,
for the record, I too would have liked to see dwarfs, undead and wood elfs get nerfed harder.

But it's a big fat bee hive - and IMO the BBRC have been very brave to stick their hands in there. I'm fairly amazed that any nerfs made it through. For each group of friends like yours, there are someone elses friends thinking that those teams are fine.

Personally, I too would have liked a nerf to orcs too - even if the data we have didn't show the need. I know a lot of other people who think so too. BUT, I've also read a heck of a lot of posts from people who think orcs are just fine.

So, I'm thrilled with what we got
For many years it looked like we'd never get a nerf to that top 3

[Tim]

The only rule changes i would like to see now is AV8 on human catchers (+10k) and goblins removed from the orc roster. But that's personal preference and i know it will not happen

[plasmoid]

Excange Throwers for Gobbos in that post and I'd completely agree.

[alternat]

it's quite easy to remove throwers or gobbos from Orc rosters: don't buy them for your team.

[Lamanzer]

I wish to modified my message and I have lost everything.

[Thadrin]

Threads like this make me glad the rules are locked down.

Dwarfs, Orcs et al are well balanced as is. Maybe knock the Gobbo off the orc roster to remove the OTS. I'd remove the Undead entirely, but that has nothingto do with balance.

I don't know who the good coaches you've been talking to are, but the stats, or the experiences of many good veterans on here, don't agree with your assessment. FWIW I played against Wood Elves (in the charge of a good elf player) and Dwarfs in my league that is just winding up it's season and beat both 3-0 with my Norse...the Wood Elves were certainly broken...just not in the way you mean.

Bottom line however: If your league honestly believes these teams are broken then do what you want. It's your league.