1Tier BB: The 4 homemade teams

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
it's probably better to separate these into their own thread, as they're really not part of the tier reduction effort.
www.plasmoids.dk/1tier_BB.doc

So, if you've got any comments on the Tileans, Bretonnians, Daemons or Rogue Elfs (Mithril Elfs?), I hope that you'll post them here.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Regarding the Rogue Elfs, Spubbbba said:

50 games isn't a lot, come back with over 1000 games against all 24 teams with varying coach ability and at different TV's and then they'll have some merit.

Geeez, what kind of a bollocks requirement is that?
I've got 150 hours of experience with the team. That means my perception that they're not broken is backed by hands-on experience.
Meanwhile, your claim that they are broken is purely speculation. But I'll refrain from demanding you back it with 1000 games.

With AG4 and easy access to dodge then you don't need to stand and fight when facing a bashier opponent, you can easily run away and pick your fights, heck I can do that with the 4 existing elf teams now.

Maybe that's the problem: You compare them to wood elfs that can't get hurt.
But they're not. They're slow.
Against cagegrinding teams they won't lose many players (though claw is very harsh on them) but on the other hand they can't OTS for the tie if the cage holds up.
Also, picking your fights isn't easy, when you have a move of 5. If they've been knocked down, it's 2 squares. Against strong or guard heavy opponents it isn't easy to dodge and weave through their line with low MA. And sweeping side changes and outmaneuvering is impossible to pull off. Heck, you'll find yourself outmaneuvered be medium speed teams. That hurts you on defense.

It also hurts you on offense. OTS is (almost) out the window. And a 2 turn score can be quite tricky with just 2 MA7 players.

But hey, I'm hosting a play by email tournament with these teams after the summer. You're welcome to give them a shot. I'll save you a seat

As for the fluff bit, maybe you could just imagine them packed in mithril gear - chaos warrior style?
Mithril Elfs?
Steel Elfs?

Cheers
Martin

[mubo]

I like the concepts of 3 of the homemade teams. Daemons in particular look fun, but 4 hypogaze/no negatrait players might tip them over the edge. I think they have real potential to be horrible at high TV. Equally they might be hopeless, difficult to say! Surely BLs have to get Frenzy? Animosity for all? Also BLs just seem better than PBs at the mo.

Other human teams look good, I like them. Not sure about SH on T. linemen though (no skills=40k?). I'd rather limit the allies to 4/5 players from 2 other rosters, rather than 500k- easier to calculate. Then maybe allow duplicates (subject to usual roster limits). e.g. Ogre, 2 human blitzers, 2 'zon blitzers = 500k. I think that sounds fairly balanced.

Have to say not wild about the concept of the Rogue elves, will be an excellent defensive team, but relatively weak in offence. I doubt they'll be overpowered, essentially HEs with +AV for -MA, but not that interesting (to me).

[Darkson]

I've got 150 hours of experience with the team. That means my perception that they're not broken is backed by hands-on experience.
Meanwhile, your claim that they are broken is purely speculation. But I'll refrain from demanding you back it with 1000 games.

While I've got no comment on the teams themselves (they interest me as much as your Bretonnians ), I have to say that one person's experience with the team is mot enough to say they aren't (or are) broken. A leaguemate had 40+ games with LRB4/5 Khemri, and we (as a group) decided the roster wasn't broken. The community at large disagreed.

That said, broken or not, a slow, heavily armoured Elf team has no interest to me - what next, fast, lightly armoured dwarfs?

[Duce]

I like the Bret team alot, hense why i'm building one from empire flaggies and some vamp thralls and wip blitzers.

The other three look nicely flavoured, as for how they play i'm not going to guess as i'm not experienced enough to make those farsights.

Props for the work though and i enjoy reading your teams and other stuff on the site.

[dines]

I kinda like the idea of the brettonia and demon teams, but fail to see cool thing about rogue elves. They seems to be worse off than any of the other elf teams, your linemen are much harder to skill up with only move 5 even though they don't die as often. What tactics did you use? I guess they somewhat resemble the dark elven playstyle with the 4 blitzers, but two turn tds are much less reliable with that slow movement and it must be difficult to bash your way without any strength skills.

[spubbbba]

Regarding the Rogue Elfs, Spubbbba said:

50 games isn't a lot, come back with over 1000 games against all 24 teams with varying coach ability and at different TV's and then they'll have some merit.

Geeez, what kind of a bollocks requirement is that?
I've got 150 hours of experience with the team. That means my perception that they're not broken is backed by hands-on experience.
Meanwhile, your claim that they are broken is purely speculation. But I'll refrain from demanding you back it with 1000 games.

Actually my stance is that LRB6 is pretty much fine and we don't need any new teams. Whilst i don't agree with every change made in 6 (kehmri being made even more rubbish and boring zons, underpowered humans and necros and overpowered orcs left the same) by and large the diversity and power is about right. Some teams will always be better than others but we don't have any of the sillines of WHFB 7th edition daemons.
I and many other coaches like that there are teams that are supposed to be worse than others. If you want to bring something new into the game and claim it's balanced due to playing 50 games then i strongly disagree with this. The basic fundamentals of collecting data are the more examples the better and you have to factor in the variables. 1000 games of rookie dwarfs vs rookie chaos is likely to give you very different results from 1000 games of claw, MB piling on heavy chaos vs 250 TV dwarfs.

I and many other coaches like that there are teams that are supposed to be worse than others.

With AG4 and easy access to dodge then you don't need to stand and fight when facing a bashier opponent, you can easily run away and pick your fights, heck I can do that with the 4 existing elf teams now.

Maybe that's the problem: You compare them to wood elfs that can't get hurt.
But they're not. They're slow.
Against cagegrinding teams they won't lose many players (though claw is very harsh on them) but on the other hand they can't OTS for the tie if the cage holds up.
Also, picking your fights isn't easy, when you have a move of 5. If they've been knocked down, it's 2 squares. Against strong or guard heavy opponents it isn't easy to dodge and weave through their line with low MA. And sweeping side changes and outmaneuvering is impossible to pull off. Heck, you'll find yourself outmaneuvered be medium speed teams. That hurts you on defense.

It also hurts you on offense. OTS is (almost) out the window. And a 2 turn score can be quite tricky with just 2 MA7 players.

My example was that even wood and pro elves can play bashy if they are blodge heavy and facing a team with little tackle. The closest existing elf team to yours is the dark elves and they can do a pretty good job of holding their own in a fight.
Looking at the team (are throwers supposed to have no agility access by the way as if so the only point to take them is to get the leader RR) the team they are closest to is Orcs with linemen, throwers and blitzers all gaining AG4 and agility access for the loss of strength access on the blitzers. Catchers add some much needed MA for the loss of the troll, goblins and black orcs.

With AG4 and dodge they can avoid getting hit pretty easily and with the AV9 are tough to take down and keep down. So they can do the standard elf tactic of not staying in tackle zones to avoid getting hit but stil have the mobilty of elves. The lower MA will restrict them a little but like Orcs it isn't that huge a disadvantage.

OTS are pretty tough to do even with MA8 players and not a strategy i'd rely on, usually it's a desperation move.

But hey, I'm hosting a play by email tournament with these teams after the summer. You're welcome to give them a shot. I'll save you a seat

Depends if it's using the old MBBL client as if so i'd avoid it like the plague unless it's be seriously improved. I'm not a huge fan of the Brettionians (but we've already dsicussed that at length), and hate GW's new happy family mixed daemon fluff now as well. I don't like mixed teams either as i feel it takes away from the existing teams.

As for the fluff bit, maybe you could just imagine them packed in mithril gear - chaos warrior style?
Mithril Elfs?
Steel Elfs?

Cheers
Martin

Elves in warhammer have armour which begins with an I in warhammer (can't remeber the name) and access to some Mithril but it's dwarfs who use it by far the most and like chaos warriors their AV9 is down to natural toughness as well as strong armour. So no one wants AV10 dwarfs running about that's for sure.

[mattgslater]

Meh, none of the four teams float my boat. But if you have fun....

[nazgob]

The word you're looking for is Ithilmar. Forged on the Anvils of Vaul in southern Ulthuan unless I miss my guess. High Elves only in the warhammer world.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
thanks for all your feedback. I hope my absence hasn't killed the discussion
I'll be off the web for a week, so this is my chance to get some comments in:

First off,
Darkson & Spubbbba - I fully recognize that a lot of people like the tiers, and that this won't be for them. I hope you've also noticed that I'm not the only one in this "reduce the gap" niche. But it's house rules, I know

I also quite agree that 50 games doesn't prove anything.
But it's a hint. And it's way better than 0 games. Or 10 games.
I - Spubbbba - also don't remember anything, ever, in the house rules section backed by 1000 games. So I think demanding that is, well, absurd.
Either way, I can't prove that they're not broken. That doesn't mean that they are broken.
So far you're the only one saying that they are.

Spubbba said:

Looking at the team they are closest to is Orcs with linemen, throwers and blitzers all gaining AG4 and agility access for the loss of strength access on the blitzers. Catchers add some much needed MA for the loss of the troll, goblins and black orcs.

Agreed that there are similarities. But the differences are massive.
4 ST4 players, a big guy, and access to S-skills on 9 players means they're very different teams. (I assume we agree).

but stil have the mobilty of elves. The lower MA will restrict them a little but like Orcs it isn't that huge a disadvantage.

I'd consider MA a pretty big factor in "mobility".
The low MA certainly was a big factor for me (and others who have played them).

The tournament will be with the old/only pbem tool.
Let me know if you change your mind - you and everyone else reading this are very welcome

And I admit that I'm stretching the fluff when it comes to AV9 elfs. Reception has generally not been positive here - but previously, there have been interested coaches. I think they fill an interesting niche. We've got some reasonably fast bashy teams - but no slow finesse teams. Certainly unique. And for the faint hearted elf coach, they offer player protection at the cost of some of the elven trademark power.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
glad to hear that some of you have enjoyed some of the teams
"Rogue" Elfs - soon to be "Ithilmar" Elfs (Thanks Nazgob) - markedly less than the other three.

I'm thrilled to see the positive comments concerning the Bretonnians. I'm not used to that on TFF - but a lot of work certainly went into them, and I'm very happy with the result, so I'm very happy that so are some of you

I've had the luxury of commishing various leagues, so Brets, Daemons and Ithilmar Elves have been used a lot in league settings. Tileans are more recent, and have only gotten 10 games in.

Daemons:
Spubbbba and Thadrin both dislike GWs new "happy family" chaos. I'm inclined to agree - I used to roleplay in the grim warhammer world of the 4 powers. Good stuff. So I totally get your preference for the old-school. I just went with the (current) fluff rather than the old school stuff.

Mumbojumboist said:

Daemons in particular look fun, but 4 hypogaze/no negatrait players might tip them over the edge. I think they have real potential to be horrible at high TV. Equally they might be hopeless, difficult to say! Surely BLs have to get Frenzy? Animosity for all? Also BLs just seem better than PBs at the mo.

They could be nasty. And sometimes they do reach that potential for a short while. But they get brutalized more than wood elfs, so often the team never truly blossoms.
The gaze is good - but mostly when the team is more developed. The gals need dodge - otherwize it's 3+ to dodge, 4+ to gaze to get the effect. Which isn't all that great.
As for frenzy in BLs - we've tried it. Seemed a bit much. This final incarnation of the daemon team is me aiming low on the power-scale. And me being a bit stingy with the skills. Daemonettes probably ought to have Disturbing Presence (musk), Plauguebearers too, and the Bloodletters frenzy. But it would turn the team into a very expensive and very powerful beast.

Tileans:
Sure hands on the linemen is pretty much a tax. But sometimes useful. I've very strongly considered catch, because it would make the team more of a finesse team - but it overlapped a bit too much with the Bret blitzers for my taste.

As for the way allies are chosen: We tried a previous version with ally selection based on positions rather than cost, and it just didn't seem very allied. The best power player from each team list was a bit of an excirsize in maxing out. I think choices are a lot more interesting when based on cost.

[edit:] Oh yeah, Thadrin remarked that with this much choice, the team is begging to be busted open/broken. I dare you - in the most respectful and friendly manner - to try. I've given the cash limits and teams a lot of consideration to avoid this.

Thanks again,
and if anyone is interesting in trying out any if this, then I'm hosting a play be email tournament once summer is over. Just let me know

Cheers
Martin

[Rodge]

I think the rogue elf team is an interesting take on things, but not sure how well they'd play. I'll stick with my dark and high elves when I want AG4

I definitely agree with the dislike of the happy families chaos setup. But we're kinda stuck with the fluff as it is now. I think this team would be more flavoured if you could put a little specific animosity rules in there. So Blood Letters would have animosity to Daemonettes, horrors have animosity to plague bearers (think I've got the old enemies right). Best thing is that this actually wouldn't handicap the team that much - each AG3 player has animosity with an AG1 player so probably wouldn't think of passing between each other anyway. So the chaos powers force their minions to play together - but they don't have to like it!
Only other thing is that plague bearers seem a bit rubbish in the list (they get foul appearance, blood letters get +1MV, horns and S access). Was thinking that they either get a 10k discount, or blood letters cost 10k more? Of all the 4 teams, I think this one is my favorite concept.

Tilean team sounds interesting, think the linemen are suitably taxed with AV7 and sure hands for the price. Will be interested to see how you see them playing out. When it says it can choose from Elf allies, does that include all the flavours of elf? So could you essentially pick 3 elf blitzers as allies (a high elf, a pro elf AND a wood elf wardancer) or are you limited to one specific elven list?

My one objection to the Bretonians is that the blitzers are too fast and underpriced (+30k for +1MV, dauntless and catch on humans). They're faster than any other human and most elven players, while still carrying AV8 (MV8 elves all have AV7). It may be balanced to make them a better team, but just doesn't make sense to me to have humans that are this fast.

[Patchwork]

I definitely agree with the dislike of the happy families chaos setup. But we're kinda stuck with the fluff as it is now.

Not really, the Slann team doesn't match the current fluff.

I don't care for the "Ithilmar" Elves. I get wanting to try out a slower finese team but I just don't care for it being another Elven team. Much the same complaint about the Brets being another human team and the Daemons being another chaos team. Not the strongest complaint though I supose, seeming it's not actually about the rosters themselves. Also with the Daemons I'd also be interested to see how balanced they are, 8 str 4 players with some players with claw and hypno gaze looks pretty powerfull in theoryball, fragile but packs a punch.

I like the idea of the Tilea team. Taking the "Imperial" team to be the human roster, there are some nice options to play with but you'll still be stuck with lots of those basic linemen, should keep it as a tier 2 team... which is slightly amusing considering Still, I'd probably enjoying giving them a try.

[Darkson]

I definitely agree with the dislike of the happy families chaos setup. But we're kinda stuck with the fluff as it is now.

Not really, the Slann team doesn't match the current fluff.

Agreed - who gives a flying fig if it matches GW's fluff or not? Even if it did, it would be outdated in a year or so anyway.

[plasmoid]

Hi Rodge and Patchwork,

Rodge - like I said, I see the appeal of the old fluff, but then there would be either 4 teams or no team, so dammit, I'm going with the new stuff
I get the animosity thing, though I feel since the skill was invented it seems that everything has to have animosity. I've chosen not to use it, as it would have to be rewritten (yuck), and doesn't do much, since 2 positionals have AG1 and one has No Hands.
Instead I originally went with 80K rerolls, but the team struggled.
70K rerolls should still portray that they're not big on teamwork

You're the second person to bring up the BL/PB thing.
Maybe I should swap their MA, so BLs were MA5 and PBs MA6. Would that be a better fit?
And as you said yourself, calling them "just another .... team" is a bit rough. They all play very differently from their existing counterparts.
For the record I went with what I did, because s-access should affect cost, and Foul Appearance seems more useful than Horns(?)

When it says it can choose from Elf allies, does that include all the flavours of elf?

Just the Elf team - it's the one most closely associated with humans.

My one objection to the Bretonians is that the blitzers are too fast and underpriced (+30k for +1MV, dauntless and catch on humans). It just doesn't make sense to me to have humans that are this fast.

Well, in the formula, MA7=>8 is worth 10K, and the skills are max 20K each.
Either way, players above 100K get a "all your eggs in one basket" discount according to the formula.
So even if priced super steeply, they're 140K=>120K.

As for their speed - they're as fast as human catchers.
They're supposed to be a hybrid between a human catcher and a human blitzer.
So, they're really not supposed to be super fast - rather they're super fit, allowing them to carry the heavier gear without impeding their movement. Good, strong genetic stock. Not elfy fast.

Patchwork said:
Thanks for the feedback, no real comments from me.
Except what playtesting I've done shows them all as OK.

Cheers all - I'm off the web for a week
Martin