Amazon tweak

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
it seems that a lot of people (a majority?) don't much like the amazon roster.
'Cookie cutter' and 'boring' are often raised as points of critique.
Also, their good performance in NAF tournaments is a bone of contention for some.

BBRC member Doubleskulls has hinted a personal ambition to overhaul the roster, if there is ever an LRB7.

Now, personally, I wouldn't want any sweeping changes to any existing roster.
I also think that amazons are totally fine in league play.
And that 'cookie cutter' is actually a unique and somewhat interesting feature, since there are no other teams like that.

So, I was wondering how to make the team less tournament-powerful, and more interesting, without giving the team a major overhaul.

So - how do you like one or more of these options:
1. Blitzers swap S-access with A-access. Prevents the tournament side from stacking guard blodgers.
2. Linewoman swap G-access with A-access. Prevents the team from going "all-blodge". Making them perhaps a bit more finesse and feminine. I think they could still be interesting in long term play, with probably side-step as a key feature!
3. Take G-access off the Thrower/Runner as well - ging the Thrower A (and the Runner nothing).

It would keep all models unchanged.
The team would be the same "out of the box" - keeping fans (reasonably) happy.
But as the team develops, it would become a very different team, and IMO a quite unique one.
I think they would be interesting to play.

Thoughts?

PS - so if all 3 changes were implemented, the team would be
0-16 Linewomen 6337 Dodge A
0-4 Blitzers 6337 Blodge GA
0-2 Catchers Catch Dodge A
0-2 Throwers Pass Dodge PA

[Joemanji]

Now, personally, I wouldn't want any sweeping changes to any existing roster.

But seriously, skill access has a stronger influence over league development than tournament play. I think this would weaken them in tournaments, but would weaken them more in leagues where (as you say) they are fine, even poor. Access to Block/Tackle etc is the only thing keeping them going.

In tournaments there will always be a "best" team. Nerf Amazons and it will be something else. I personally hate Amazons because of their ability to (often, but not always) forgive a player all their mistakes. But I think a better way to "balance" tournaments is giving extra skills to the weaker teams and/or restricting a team's ability to spam one skill.

[Podfrey]

+1 for Manj

If the issue is multi-guard blodgers then just restrict the ability to have multi-. Dwarves, it could be argued, are just as powerful with multi-guard.

And at the end of the day let's not forget that, assuming 2 dice for the attacker, most of the team are little better than goblins.

Perhaps this issue might also be dealt with by borrowing a certain Privateer Press quote

[plasmoid]

Hi Joe and Podfrey,
I don't care that they're at the top of tournaments. It just seems there is a lot of hate out there(?)
I quite like them, as I said

@Joe:
*Come on Joe. You know I like several small tweaks. But sweeping changes as in "completely different roster" - I'm not for that at all.
*And they'd still have access to tackle on the blitzers.
*Finally - I think sidestep access on ST3+Dodge could be huge.
*Either way - I think it would make them interesting. A team with access to A, but not spending first pick on dodge opens up a lot of options. Yes, I know stunties are the same - but, IMO, ST3 makes a massive difference.

BTW I totally agree that skill tweaking is the best and easiest fix for tournaments
Making them a bit more interesting could still be appealing though

@Podfrey:
Care to enlighten me on the Privateer Press quote?
Or is it just KISS?

[SillySod]

These fixes dont really deal with the four main problems...
1) the team is utterly yawntastic
2) with a little luck even an average player can escape from a really bad situation (you can totally outposition them and it doesnt matter) which is frustrating
3) they ride roughshod over alot of the weaker/specialist teams
4) they do poorly against dwarf/chaos dwarf teams, IMO this is more the fault of the amazon team design than the dwarf team design

I dont care that they are cookie cutter. I care that they are dull and reduce the level of skill in the game.

In contrast: I like orcs because BOBs and goblins make them tactically interesting.

[Grumbledook]

doesn't solve the fact that they are all 6337, thought that was another factor to people calling them boring, similar to how norse were altered

[plasmoid]

Fair enough, this didn't take.

For the record, I don't think they're broken or even particularly boring.
Just responding to an 'outcry' that may well be exaggerated.

Move along

[SillySod]

The old norse team was quite interesting. It didnt have much in the way of long term prospects but it played in an exciting, risky, and violent style. Totally the oposite of amazon teams, desite their apparent symmetry.

[dines]

These fixes dont really deal with the four main problems...
1) the team is utterly yawntastic
2) with a little luck even an average player can escape from a really bad situation (you can totally outposition them and it doesnt matter) which is frustrating
3) they ride roughshod over alot of the weaker/specialist teams
4) they do poorly against dwarf/chaos dwarf teams, IMO this is more the fault of the amazon team design than the dwarf team design

I dont care that they are cookie cutter. I care that they are dull and reduce the level of skill in the game.

In contrast: I like orcs because BOBs and goblins make them tactically interesting.

Totally agree. The main problems with amazons are the boring 6337 and all dodge thing rather than skill access.

[spubbbba]

I think doubleskulls's roster was much more of an improvement on the existing roster and the one suggested here.

The reason zons are seen as dull is that all their positionals are the same aside from skills. So a 6spp linewoman with block is the same as a rookie Blitzer (but 20TV less), with the removal of traits then there are even less differences.

They need some variety in their stats to make the team more interesting and make some real difference between catchers, throwers and linewomen.

There were a lot of new skills added in lrb5 but few teams start with these and plenty of skills that no other teams start with so there is potential to give them things like fend, HMP, Diving catch, passblock, juggernaut etc.

Maybe some extra MA on the blitzers or catchers and AV on the blitzers, of course then the issue is they end up too much like the human team.

[gandresch]

Hi,

i just thought about Zons while watching a game on fumbbl. To me the roster appears pretty boring. That is, why i don't think about playing them. To me the biggest problem is the 6337, as said before. That is, why i thought about an alternate roster, which has a bit more variety.

Lino:
Leaving them as they are for the moment.

Blitzer:
Why have they the same stats than the rest of the team, give them +1AV and +10k in price (only 10k, because e.g. a Wardancer costs 120k and has Leap and Ag4 as additional skills, 110k for a blitzer would be too expensive)

Catcher:
0-4 7237 Dodge, Diving Catch, Sprint 80k (not sure about the price)

Thrower:
Why give the thrower Dodge at all. 0-2 6337 Nerves Of Steel, Pass, Fend, 90k

This would solve several things. The positions are not that equal to linos as they were before, the prizes go up and therefor zons become more expensive for tournaments. But the best thing about changes are, that the roster gives you more options.

Greets,
gan

[plasmoid]

Hi Gandresch, Spubbbba and all,

I see a hundred options to extensively change the roster.
But neither Doubleskulls' nor Gabdresch's roster appeals to me.

If the roster has to undergo so heavy changing that it isn't recognizable as the amazon roster anymore, then I'd rather just so the old roster cut - without a replacement. If the old amazons are going, why add new ones.

Spubbbba said:
"So a 6spp linewoman with block is the same as a rookie Blitzer (but 20TV less)"
At least with A (non-G) access, the linewomen would not develop into mini-blitzers.

Cheers
Martin

[SillySod]

As much as I'd like to cut the amazon roster... there are alot of people with models out there who will not want their team cut.

[plasmoid]

All they need is an ogre and 2 yellow base-rings.
Presto: Human team. Which I'm told is what they are

[Patchwork]

All they need is an ogre and 2 yellow base-rings.
Presto: Human team.

Using the Human or Norse roster would work for me! ... but then I don't use the Amazon roster so my opinion of that doesn't matter much

Which I'm told is what they are

You can't tell that for yourself? Women a little bit of a fantasy race to you?