Death Zone season 3, what might be

[Milo]

Zzap! should return for wizards and they should cost 200kp

Zzap - yes please. Would love Zzap back.

What circumstances would you use Zzap in, over a fireball or a lightning bolt? Genuinely curious. I think the reasons it was removed was partly due to the need to have a cardboard piece to represent the toad in a time when BB could not include any additional items, and partly because it was underutilized compared to the other two spells. If you can think of some clear cases when zzap would be used instead of the lightning bolt, I'd like to hear them.

[dreamscreator]

Zzap! should return for wizards and they should cost 200kp

Zzap - yes please. Would love Zzap back.

What circumstances would you use Zzap in, over a fireball or a lightning bolt? Genuinely curious. I think the reasons it was removed was partly due to the need to have a cardboard piece to represent the toad in a time when BB could not include any additional items, and partly because it was underutilized compared to the other two spells. If you can think of some clear cases when zzap would be used instead of the lightning bolt, I'd like to hear them.

Basically one: fun.

[garion]

Zzap! should return for wizards and they should cost 200kp

Zzap - yes please. Would love Zzap back.

What circumstances would you use Zzap in, over a fireball or a lightning bolt? Genuinely curious. I think the reasons it was removed was partly due to the need to have a cardboard piece to represent the toad in a time when BB could not include any additional items, and partly because it was underutilized compared to the other two spells. If you can think of some clear cases when zzap would be used instead of the lightning bolt, I'd like to hear them.

It is not the optimal spell I totally agree. But it is fun and a perfectly example of adding a 'Funster' rule (for want of a better term) without rocking the 'strategy competitive rules boat'. Every now and again it is fun just to throw caution to the wind and do something that requires a higher level of luck to work but the out come is incredibly fun and who didn't love frog hunting when it worked? Or the hilarity that ensued when the spell missed and scattered about.

That said if you are talking about wizards another issue with CRP was that the "hit anywhere spell" moved from a 4+ (Zzap), to a 2+ lightning bolt making Wizards exponentially better. Lightning bolt as I am sure you can remember was a side line only spell. This meant there was much more strategy involved when defending against it back in the day, how you position players and so on, there was also more strategy involved in using the spell too. how you positioned your players centrally to try and push a player down the side lines so you could force an opening for a lightning bolt (which was 2d6 iirc 3+ to hit?).

Now lrb5 and CRP did "fix" a number of things relating to the wizard. 1, it made fireball effect everyone in the same way (no longer Ag dependant). 2, It cleaned up when the spells could be used. 3, It made it so the TV leader hiring wizards was very rare on the whole, (something that has been re-broken in the current rule set).

But for me lightning bolt was dumbed down too much. I would have much preferred it just changed to a standard 2+ shot from the side line to keep it simple. Rather than a hit anywhere on a 2+ which made it over powered in the right hands eg. skaven that were 150k tv down, or elves that were 150k down. Remember the previous hit anywhere spell was 4+. This was a BIG buff. FYI The most common house rule I observed in the CRP era was making the lrb5/CRP wiz 200k.

Now on the current rule set we have the horrible situation of the new wizard which I have provided plenty of feedback on already. If the new character wizard does remain a core rule, then you will need to be very very careful how you approach including the proper wizard back in the game. If it was me I would move all those gimmicky character Coach inducements and stick them in the same optional section as Stadium Rules. With a strong warning next to them. Otherwise you will be looking at a situation where a lot games will have 1 lightning bolt a game and 1 fireball each half. Which sounds game breaking, dull and dicey as hell.

If the CRP wizard does come back then what harm is Zzap going to do? Forge World could sell one of their giant toads for the model too which is extra money as well.

[Milo]

Now on the current rule set we have the horrible situation of the new wizard which I have provided plenty of feedback on already. If the new character wizard does remain a core rule, then you will need to be very very careful how you approach including the proper wizard back in the game. If it was me I would move all those gimmicky character Coach inducements and stick them in the same optional section as Stadium Rules. With a strong warning next to them. Otherwise you will be looking at a situation where a lot games will have 1 lightning bolt a game and 1 fireball each half. Which sounds game breaking, dull and dicey as hell.

If the CRP wizard does come back then what harm is Zzap going to do? Forge World could sell one of their giant toads for the model too which is extra money as well.

I wasn't suggesting zzap was harmful. If anything, I think perhaps it would need a boost to make it worth using in comparison to the lightning bolt (which as you mention is already overpowered -- so maybe it needs a nerf.) I was just asking when it would ever be used, if it came back in its existing form. There's no point in writing a bunch of rules that will never, ever get used.

How many games have you actually faced off against Horatio?

[stashman]

Zzaap could cost less. Stay during the game.
Maybe a witch as infamous coaching staff, like Horatio but cheaper.

[Mori-mori]

Checked em.. So, aside from relatively few new optional rules (stadiums, referees, sponsorship etc), it's like mostly the same content, with some adjustments to certain skills and star players, and a LOT of fluff and arts. Well.. I guess I'll wait for some discounts :3

You want to make a point about relative few changes and only mention a few changes, ignoring stuff like rostered star players, (In)Famous Coaching Staff, new Star Players, new team positionals and Hall of Fame teams. Don't under-represent the content to try make a point it's mostly the same content. It's not. The book is packet with new stuff.

..most of which are optional, if I got it right. Then some of changes are mere renamings, and sure there a some additions (though relatively to content existing since CRP percentage of those is very low; like, may be, 10-15% of the text). And those additions.. Sure do add some variety, but, again, a part of them are just not that significant.

And to name those few which are big deal, IMO, there is [almost] full list: Piling On requires a TRR (really big one), change to wizards (not very big, wizard always was a situational thing), Special Play cards (haven't checked them properly yet, but have a hunch they reuse a lot of content from CRP's cards), MVP random from 3 players (well..okay..), Expensive Mistakes (moderate change), Offseason & Redrafting (moderate change)

Still, again, they are marked as optional too (too much optional stuff, like if GW are not sure themselve whether it will be of any good)

[lunchmoney]

Assuming Zapp was the spell that turned an opponent into a toad?

What circumstances would you use Zzap in, .

A high AV piece has the ball. Zapp him, Block him, foul him, foul him some more. If he's still alive, foul him again whilst hs AV is low.

[dreamscreator]

Oh, you have Deeproot. Oh, he is a toad now. Oh, he is dead.

I like Zapp when it was in the rules. But is a good spell to try to kill strong opponents players.

Moreover, you can earn some SPP killing a toad, but not using a lightbold.

[Darkson]

What circumstances would you use Zzap in, over a fireball or a lightning bolt?

(To try) To get rid of the ST4 AG5 Wardancer, to get rid of that ST5 Claw/RSC/PO Chaos Warrior (back in the day), to get rid of any other player that offends Nuffle by walking around on the pitch. Bounty rules make a comeback.

And as Garion said, for fun - back in the day I wish they'd removed Lightning Bolt rather than Zap.

[faust_33]

Was there a success roll for Zzap? Also, I think it would make more sense to rename it, if there is also a Lightning Bolt spell. A bit confusing name-wise.

[garion]

Was there a success roll for Zzap? Also, I think it would make more sense to rename it, if there is also a Lightning Bolt spell. A bit confusing name-wise.

Yes it was 4+ to hit. If you hit the player turned in to a toad 3 1 4 4 dodge, leap, stunty, no hands. it also cannot assist or cancel assists. any injuries suffered remain when it transforms back. If they have regen they can roll for regen as normal. They are a toad until the end of the drive.

on a 1-3 the spell scatters 3 times (D8)

I wasn't suggesting zzap was harmful. If anything, I think perhaps it would need a boost to make it worth using in comparison to the lightning bolt (which as you mention is already overpowered -- so maybe it needs a nerf.) I was just asking when it would ever be used, if it came back in its existing form. There's no point in writing a bunch of rules that will never, ever get used.

yes it would get used, and more often than a lot of the optional rules. As I said in my previous post -

it is fun and a perfectly example of adding a 'Funster' rule (for want of a better term) without rocking the 'strategy competitive rules boat'. Every now and again it is fun just to throw caution to the wind and do something that requires a higher level of luck to work but the out come is incredibly fun and who didn't love frog hunting when it worked? Or the hilarity that ensued when the spell missed and scattered about.

Also you sometimes get a wizard and realise you don't need one, currently this makes you either lightning bolt their best player and hope you kill it. Or you fireball a group of opposing players. Zzap would always get used here for fun.

Also to provide you with a fluffy house rule example I used once a while ago, which was - stadium upgrades these are 2 pertinent upgrades to this conversation though there were a few others and rules around it-

Steel Cage (your home matches are playing on a pitch surrounded by a metal cage, lightning bolt has no effect)

Sprinkler System (your home matches are played on a pitch with an elaborate sprinkler systems that means Fireballs have no effects)

with stadium upgrades like these in play you would be left with Zzap as the only option.

How many games have you actually faced off against Horatio?

Me personally, only a couple. I do not like his effect on the game though. 1 fireball that is slightly inaccurate would have been just about ok. But one each half is lame. It gives you a couple of shots at popping the ball free or chipping away at a screen/cage for only 80k. But what makes it even worse is - the TV leaders are often buying it. Which means you have to take it so no one gets it. Don't see the fun there, its just detrimental to the TV underdogs chances of making the game closer to being fair. In CRP the aim of inducements was to even things up a bit. Moving the win ratio to around 30% for the underdog on average. I feel this rule set is making things even harder for the underdog and weaker races.

[spubbbba]

Zzaap could cost less. Stay during the game.
Maybe a witch as infamous coaching staff, like Horatio but cheaper.

I think this would be the best option, a named character that can only cast this spell. Maybe something like once a half or even make it like the fireball and everyone under is turned into a toad on a 4+, but only for 1 turn.

[Darkson]

Toad should have Titchy.

[straume]

It is not the optimal spell I totally agree. But it is fun and a perfectly example of adding a 'Funster' rule

I agree it is a fun rule. Morg? Okay now he is a toad. This is good fun. However: I must admit I was surprised you would embrace this funster rule, considering your criticism of the new goblins (bloat). From a competitive point of view the LB/FB would be better in almost all matches (some odd exceptions could be found ofc). I am not trying to slam you or anything, but I am curious as to when the fun rules are good and when the fun rules are bad? I am sure we can agree that the Doom Diver for instance is good fun!

Also: CRP Wizard for 150K is very useful. I think it is fair to say that it is the clearly best value inducement in the game. Giving it a price hike to 200K would imo be a good change.

[garion]

It is not the optimal spell I totally agree. But it is fun and a perfectly example of adding a 'Funster' rule

I agree it is a fun rule. Morg? Okay now he is a toad. This is good fun. However: I must admit I was surprised you would embrace this funster rule, considering your criticism of the new goblins (bloat). From a competitive point of view the LB/FB would be better in almost all matches (some odd exceptions could be found ofc). I am not trying to slam you or anything, but I am curious as to when the fun rules are good and when the fun rules are bad? I am sure we can agree that the Doom Diver for instance is good fun!

I think you misunderstand the points I was making in my criticism of the goblins. Firstly though including Zap again is exactly the type of fun rule I am all for. It is sub optimal but it is a lot of fun, most importantly it does not cause big in game problems. It doesn't unbalance anything, it is purely a fun addition. While Lightning and fireball would remain the better options competitively.

Now back to goblins. I was critical of the changes for a few reasons. First of all if you go back and check that thread, I said a few times that I am fine with the doom diver addition, in fact here are some quotes from the DZ 2 thread

Doom Diver - Definitely adds some fun unlike the Ooligan, so he will get a run out. But in a competitive goblin team he will be left behind. Similar story to the bomber really.

New players are largely pointless though at least Doom Diver adds some fun.

As you can see I'm fine with that sub optional addition as it adds fun without rocking the boat. I will likely only ever take him for a laugh in a 1 off game, and can't ever really see me using him if I am playing in a league.

'Ooligan on the other hand I really dislike. First of all I do understand the intertextuality at play here. He was a 2nd miniature. But just because we all love 2nd editions foundations doesn't mean we should shoe horn nonsense in to the team from that edition. What next? Fire throwers in Chaos Dwarf teams and Chaos See-Saws, heck maybe we even see the Chaos Toilet return.... So fluff wise I have issues with an 'Ooligan being a rostered player. But I could let this go if he brought something worthwhile or fun to the table. What we have though is a player with 1 almost completely useless skill Disturbing Presence which actually makes this guy detrimental to your team because of his cost. So not just slightly ineffective, actually detrimental to your team. And Fan Favourite is just a gimmick with no in game use. Sure it might help on a kick off table once in a while, but honestly in a team that needs to keep its self trim to induce bribes in order to keep your secret weapons on the pitch why would you ever take him... It shows a lack of understanding of the game mechanics around bribes and how Goblin teams are managed. Now if they brought back SW rolls in this edition (which they really really should have). Then the team wouldn't have to stay so trim to keep their weapons on the pitch and this guy might actually see some use.

What I find really bizarre is this addition sees the introduction of Character coach inducements. Surely 'Ooligan would be a better fit here, as some fan that gets on the pitch at goblins games and helps out, rather than a rostered option. This a sports team after all. It could be written as such (although I'm sure with some thought better wording would be chosen) -
Infamous Coaches
'Ooligan - 70k
'Ooligan sneaks in to your dug out before the game starts and offers his services
'Ooligan is added to your roster for this game only and can take part just like a normal player.

'Ooligan 6237 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff, Fan Favourite, Disturbing Presence.

^ this way you wouldn't nonesensically have an Ooligan on the roster, and he might see the occasional use when you are a huge TV underdog. Its much better than a Merc for the same cost.

Now my final and biggest gripe with Goblins is we have played the CRP version of the rules for 7 years or so. I think just about everyone I know that plays with stunty teams was in total and complete agreement that Trolls should lose Loner. The problem with Loner trolls is Goblins are often stuck in a position in which they have no safe move to move as their 1st action and the Troll block or blitz is statistically the best first move, so you do it and they roll 'skull, both down,' turn over. This happens often and is not fun. Goblins have a tough enough time as it is without having to deal with this all the time. It is such a small change that makes the team soo much more fun to play. Now we are stuck for another addition with Loner Trolls. A change that everyone wanted. But the people doing the rules seemed to be unaware of. I'm not sure if its because they don't play goblins or stunty teams or what. But this was such a truly crushing disappointment, I cannot state this enough.