So - about that human catcher

[Artemis Black]

Hi Artemis,
I reacted to exactly the same thing about Darksons post, so I can see why you'd see my post in the same light. So I'll expand.
Guard is a very strong skill. IMO especially on starting teams, where nobody else has it.
ST4 is also in itself a big deal.

Furthermore, Cyanide tried something as marginal as AV8 on the catchers, and AFAIK that pushed the human win percentage to around 50%.
So they don't need a lot.
IMO, both Guard and ST4 is a lot. And combined they're a heck of a lot.

Cheers
Martin

All solid points. Guard is definitely a strong skill, but on players with strength access it's basically just 6 free SPP. There's no 'real' difference imo between it and block as a starting skill, the second skill is going to be the other one. The main reason I liked Guard is that it's 'super' important to know how guard works in the game and yet no team starts with it as you say. Every other top tier skill in the game (I believe) exists on a starting team. Including all block and all dodge teams, even blodge on multiple teams and so on.

ST3 guard would work I think, but then after they get block they are just 2 more blitzers on the team. If you give them AV9 then they're Orks again.

The template for it is mostly that Zug is a thing. He's not depicted as an Ogre etc ever so a human with ST5 is doable, then I think ST4 humans could be a thing, like 6'6 400lb american football players. They're more rare than Black Orcs, hence the 0-2. The skill was mostly to make them less vanilla (and the choice of skill was based on the above), but I'm happy to be convinced it too big a buff.

I might make some custom teams on BB2 and playtest some games against what should be in the Ork team in the box. Try out the different variations. I mean nobody is gona be listening to my random whinge on a forum so I might as well get some fun out of it

[Artemis Black]

I like the blocker solution (0-2 5339, GS access) because it follows the 2 ed fluff. It also gives humans a bit more ST and durability which they need, instead of 0-4 catchers).

St 4 players don’t fit humans, imho.

So they get 2 Orc lineman with strength access? I mean it's 'fine' but compared to human blitzers they've lost 2 MV and block for a single AV boost.

[Artemis Black]

Oh, and as I hijacked the OP's thread for this, in reply to the poriginal point...

Yes, it's super dumb to base rules decisions on what a mini looks like and not the other way around.

Also, if anyone looked at the mini of the catcher and the minis of wood elves or, even worse, a witch elf, and thought 'Yeah, they are clearly wearing the same amount of armour' then not only should they not be involved in rules design but someone should bubblewrap their head in case they walk into any more walls.

AV7 is minimal or no armour, AV8 is regular football armour, AV9 is heavy armour. The catcher models are clearly wearing regular football armour.

(Ignoring special cases like Trollslayers and Treemen, which can easily be fluffed away)

[MacHurto]

2 guard as starting skills makes them very strong for tournaments, which is what most people here think of (I believe).

Good point on 5339 just being an orc lineman with S access. Stand firm is already taken by golems, thick skull by skeletons and grab might be too powerful. Juggernaut doesn’t really fit the concept. Maybe dauntless? They seem to struggle most against bash and would fit their ST4 in 2ed

[Artemis Black]

2 guard as starting skills makes them very strong for tournaments, which is what most people here think of (I believe).

Good point on 5339 just being an orc lineman with S access. Stand firm is already taken by golems, thick skull by skeletons and grab might be too powerful. Juggernaut doesn’t really fit the concept. Maybe dauntless? They seem to struggle most against bash and would fit their ST4 in 2ed

Dauntless is already a Bret/Trollslayer thing. Which furthers my point about nobody starting with one of the most important to learn skills in the game, guard. Starting teams have to learn how to best use dauntless and fend and leap and all kinds of skills but guard is such an important concept to learn and it's not on anyone at the moment.

I must admit I hadn't thought about it from a tournament standpoint, but at the moment I believe Humans are classed as Tier 2 in most tiered tournaments, so usually get extra skills anyway? With a buff they'd be classed as Tier 1 and so would lose the free extra ones but gain the 2 starting ones.

I'm watching the current world cup invitiational on BB2 and in that, Tier 2 races get an extra singles 'and' an extra doubles skill over Tier 1 races to start with. So in that format, humans would actually get worse if they just had 2 ST3 guard players and were bumped to Tier 1 as they'd lose the doubles skill (which is a nice way to get Block on the Ogre and it seems to be getting people to pick Humans for the WC).

[MacHurto]

Norse have dauntless too so a 4th positional with t wouldn’t be crazy. Anyway, the more I think of it the more I dislike it. I guess 5339 GS acres for 60k is the best I can come up with so improving the catcher is the probably the best idea.

Not too experienced, but I am sure 2x Guard for free in a tournament is pretty huge. I’d rather have 6 skills + 2 linemen with Guard than Block on the Ogre

[Artemis Black]

Norse have dauntless too so a 4th positional with t wouldn’t be crazy. Anyway, the more I think of it the more I dislike it. I guess 5339 GS acres for 60k is the best I can come up with so improving the catcher is the probably the best idea.

Not too experienced, but I am sure 2x Guard for free in a tournament is pretty huge. I’d rather have 6 skills + 2 linemen with Guard than Block on the Ogre

I think you've misunderstood, you wouldn't have 6 skills, if Humans were reclassified as Tier 1 for tournaments, they'd get 4 skills, no doubles. If they are Tier 2 they get 6 skills, including 1 double. So if getting 2 guard players reclassifies them, then they are worse off, not better as they'd lose the ability to use a double. Which is why I think just having 2 more ST3 players that start with guard isn't a good enough buff.

[JT-Y]

Not all tournaments are the same. so sweeping statements about what would happen in tournament play don't work, we have to deal in general themes.

Anyway, it's a moot point, I can tell you now that I'm not giving Guard to any rookie player on any roster; it is a massive force multiplier and blows game balance apart.

[Artemis Black]

Not all tournaments are the same. so sweeping statements about what would happen in tournament play don't work, we have to deal in general themes.

I don't think anyone made any did they?

Anyway, it's a moot point, I can tell you now that I'm not giving Guard to any rookie player on any roster; it is a massive force multiplier and blows game balance apart.

That seems ... well, ridiculous. But ya know, this wasn't really about getting it to actually happen

[lunchmoney]

Not all tournaments are the same. so sweeping statements about what would happen in tournament play don't work, we have to deal in general themes.

I don't think anyone made any did they?

Yes.

You did.

I think you've misunderstood, you wouldn't have 6 skills, if Humans were reclassified as Tier 1 for tournaments, they'd get 4 skills, no doubles. If they are Tier 2 they get 6 skills, including 1 double. So if getting 2 guard players reclassifies them, then they are worse off, not better as they'd lose the ability to use a double. Which is why I think just having 2 more ST3 players that start with guard isn't a good enough buff.

Not all tourneys use a tiering system (mine for example).

[Artemis Black]

Not all tournaments are the same. so sweeping statements about what would happen in tournament play don't work, we have to deal in general themes.

I don't think anyone made any did they?

Yes.

You did.

I think you've misunderstood, you wouldn't have 6 skills, if Humans were reclassified as Tier 1 for tournaments, they'd get 4 skills, no doubles. If they are Tier 2 they get 6 skills, including 1 double. So if getting 2 guard players reclassifies them, then they are worse off, not better as they'd lose the ability to use a double. Which is why I think just having 2 more ST3 players that start with guard isn't a good enough buff.

Not all tourneys use a tiering system (mine for example).

Ahh, yeah fair enough I just said 'for tournaments' but I thought it was obvious from context that I was talking about the BB2 WC tournament i.e. the one we were having a conversation about in this case (and from inference, others like it).

I mean, as you say, it doesn't even make any sense as a sentence otherwise because tournaments can have 'any' rules.

[MacHurto]

Eurobowl rules are 6 skills or 6+1 double, that’s why I mentioned it. On different meta, things might differ, of course, but in general 2x Guard without upgrades would be a huge boost, even in league play for Low TV matches where humans already do fine. It is more at highTV they struggle, I think (haven’t checked the data so might be wrong)

[Artemis Black]

Eurobowl rules are 6 skills or 6+1 double, that’s why I mentioned it. On different meta, things might differ, of course, but in general 2x Guard without upgrades would be a huge boost, even in league play for Low TV matches where humans already do fine. It is more at highTV they struggle, I think (haven’t checked the data so might be wrong)

2018 Eurobowl is 6 normal or 7 and a double, so Humans would be worse in that in the same way as in the BB2 WC. They'd lose a double skill, which is usually block for the Ogre (Or guard for a catcher maybe)

The bonus cancelling that loss out would be they could potentially have 6 guard max instead of 4 (or 5 if they used the double for guard), if they still chose to give all the blitzers guard. That's worth the loss of the double skill I think. So I guess maybe they aren't worse off, but about the same? It's very close at least so under any similar tiered rules having starting guard wouldn't overbuff the humans.

[MacHurto]

True 7+1.

If you start with two guard you don’t need to use two skill ups on your blitzers for it. It allows you to have other skills in two blitzers (MB, Takle, Frenzy, sure hands, etc) which is a huge boost, imho. Anyway, now we are just repeating ourselves

[Artemis Black]

True 7+1.

If you start with two guard you don’t need to use two skill ups on your blitzers for it. It allows you to have other skills in two blitzers (MB, Takle, Frenzy, sure hands, etc) which is a huge boost, imho. Anyway, now we are just repeating ourselves

That's not really a boost though? That's just a change in skills. I mean you only get the 6 skillups instead of the 8 you had before. It's a close call between 8 skillups, including a double for a block ogre, and 6 skillsups without a double plus 2 guard. Close enough that I doubt anyone would consider it some kind of crazy buff. You can get 6 guard instead of 4, or you can get 3 skills on a guarder instead of 2. So it's definitely a nice team for the format. Which is kinda the point, I'd 'like' to see Humans be a solid choice. As mentioned above, they're the default team because 'we' are humans. Imo Humans should be the solid default pick, and all the other teams should be variations.

They're sort of a decent choice now but only because they are considered weak enough to be in Tier 2 to start with so get the extra boost.

It kinda sucks that Blood Bowl is heavily advertised, and every box set comes, with Humans v Orcs and Humans are a second tier team and Orcs are low first tier. "Look how cool this game is, ignore the art and the models you get though you'll really want to play Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Skaven, Lizardmen etc instead if you'd actually like to win this game or if you like the Blood part, then take a look at Chaos, Chorfs, Dwarves and Undead'