BBMag3 Mixed Race Rules

Post by **Thadrin** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 12:26 pm

I gave the team I planned on using in the opening post Longshot. Not even slightly beardy.

Fenryll - No Undead at all anywhere in the lists. or Chaos Dwarfs for that matter.

I see where Dave is coming from, but I'm not sure its any worse than than say the Orc roster (5 guys with ST4 or more.)...and that extreme example would take an age to build up...even if it is theoretically possible. I'm not sure about the allowance for more than one big guy myself, but I think that may be due to the classic Chaos All-stars roster having one of each.

and I thik Zombie is just knee-jerking.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 12:26 pm

What happened to the no AG4 and ST4 players on the same roster "rule"?

I don't know about these teams. They might still be too good. The OldW. and ChaosP. teams have both access to elves for ball-handling and good players for their line.

Perhaps both teams should have normal human linemen as their basic team. Nothing else. And then in addition to that, they could hire allies as described in the rules - 2liners or a position player from each race, + the big guys.
But I dunno... playtesting will tell...

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 2:47 pm

Me, knee-jerking? This is by far the most unbalanced thing i've ever seen! 3rd ed star players pale in comparison in terms of imbalance! This is but a load of crap and should be forgotten forever, and deleted from the annals of Blood Bowl. Nothing short of that will do.

Post by **Thadrin** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 2:50 pm

I don't think the Old world team has too good linemen - standard Dwarfs and Humans? The thing I think people are objecting to is the wide availability of st4 players to the Chaos team, together with its ability to field three big guys. The other two lists are absolutely fine...even with the availability of a gang of elves on a dwarf/human team.

The first point I think would best be solved by designating proper positions ala 2nd ed. and saying no more than two of each: 2 throwers, 2 Blitzers (including Witch Elves), 2 Blockers (Including Black Orcs and Chaos Warriors), 2 Catchers (including Gutter Runners and Goblins), or possibly add a special "Backstabbing!" rule for the chaos team.

The latter is a problem: balance demands a limit of one, but theres the whole Chaos All Stars fluff thing. Simplest thing would be some bit of fluff writing mentioning that the All Stars got hit by some new ruling that would explain the limit of one big guy per team, while not ruling out the Ogre team concept...and then reducing their limit to one like every other normal team.

I still say as a new way of getting the mixed teams back into the game its a huge improvement over what we had in the past.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 2:56 pm

No, none of the teams is fine. Elves + dwarves on the same team = too strong. Amazons + lizardmen on the same team = too strong. Any possible combination given here is too strong. And the cost of rerolls only changes something in the short term. In the long term, it's possible to develop a killer team, and that should not be allowed. Remember vampires? I thought we learned something from those...

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:12 pm

Uh guys based on my discussions with Chet on this unless it says otherwises .. I'm 99.9% sure that the team is STILL only allowed 1 Big Guy.

Galak

Piepgrass · Post by **Piepgrass** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:18 pm

According to mag. you are allowed to have one of each BG that are available to you team.

Poul

Post by **Thadrin** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:34 pm

Tom: Page 11, second column "A coach of a mixed race team may hire one of each big guy listed for his team. That means a Lustria team can hire both an Ogre and a Kroxigor."

Seems clear, even if its an - ahem - editorial change.

Zombie - I disagree entirely. Dwarfs and elves too strong together? There I have to disagree with you. I don't think it fits fluff, but then we're going into the territory of the old 2nd. ed. psychology stuff, and WFB stuff which would generally preclude sporting events. (For what its worth lose the High Elves from the Old World list and I'm still a happy camper.)
I REALLY don't see the problem with a gang of Skinks and a gang of Amazons. Whoopee...they all have dodge and AV7. They go crunch quite nicely. So you can all of a sudden get a Skink team with a decent thrower. they lose five saurus on the deal. I think I can cope with that.

AN idea, primarily for the Chaos pact team, but which I think would be generally acceptable on these rosters: limit the allies to 0-8, and positional allies to 0-2. You still get the pick and mix, but it cuts down the ST4/AG4+Skills possibilities.
Cuts out pretty much all the beard possibilities.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 5:21 pm

Here are the teams I would go with. I want to note that these rules should have more limits because they are indeed too strong. Gutter Runners and Dark Elf Throwers on the same team = bad news. Wardancers are bad news, period; mixed with other races.. <shudder>

Evil Gits
2 Goblins 80k
1 Gutter Runner 80k
1 Dark Elf Thrower 90k
1 Chaos Warrior 100k
1 Orc Blitzer 80k
5 Marauders 250k

3 Rerolls 270k
5 FF 50k

Ravening Horde
2 Goblins 80k
1 Gutter Runner 80k
1 Chaos Warrior 100k
1 Orc Blitzer 80k
4 Marauders 200k
1 Troll 100k
1 Ogre 120k

2 Rerolls 180k
6 FF 60k

Old World
2 Longbeards 140k
2 Halflings 60k
1 Wardancer 120k
1 Dragon Warrior 100k
1 Human Thrower 70k
1 Treeman 110k
3 Linemen 150k

2 Rerolls 160k
9 FF 90k

Lustrian
1 Saurus 80k
1 Amazon Blitzer 80k
1 Norse Blitzer 80k
1 Kroxigor 130k
1 Ogre 120k
2 Skinks 120k
4 Line-chicks 200k

2 Rerolls 140k
5 FF 50K

Now, as far as experimental rules, this is great stuff, a step in the right direction. However, I believe they need to be fully tested, and have additional limitations placed on them, because other wise the teams are too strong, especially at low TRs.

-Dave

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 5:33 pm

Not having seen the mag yet, are these designed to play in standard leagues or just against each other?

Post by **Thadrin** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 6:17 pm

Dark Elf thrower to Gutter Runner is no worse than exists already on the Wood Elf roster. Admittedly you can get better blocking with the Chaos Pact team, but you don't get the advantage of ANYONE on the team being able to pass or throw reliably. I think maybe the position limits I mentioned could help iron out that problem too (do I take the CW or the Thrower...etc.)

I'd guess the worry on the old world roster is a Human thrower with a Lion Warrior and either a Wardancer or WE catcher...but thats no scarier than elves alreday have. So they start with some guys with block...they don't get nearly as many guys with AG skills down the line.

Limit the number of ST4 guys available to the Chaos Pact team, by adding a "total two position players" clause, make sure there is ONE big guy per team, and I think it would be fine.

I love the concept of these new lists to bits. They're characterful, and they don't mean every damned team will be able to get allies up to the point it becomes obligatory.

<dons asbestos suit for when Zombie next show up.>

neverdodge · Post by **neverdodge** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 6:21 pm

just like deathwing said, i m just curious seing those teams playing against "standard" team...

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 6:25 pm

Deathwing wrote:Not having seen the mag yet, are these designed to play in standard leagues or just against each other?

Standard league ... the MBBL Season 2 will allow them.

Galak

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 7:09 pm

Answers to questions:

1. Yes, you get one of each Big Guy allowed. Have fun, but, umm...I wouldn't be so eager were I you.

2. Yes, you could hire a team of 12 linemen for Chaos Pact. Have fun, but, umm...I wouldn't be so eager were I you.

3. Yes, you can have a Chaos Pact team with AG4 and ST4 on the same squad...if you're willing to have no more than 2 or 3 of each AND give up your Strength skill access across the front line. Hmm.

4. Yes, Zombie's knee-jerking

The rules definitely need more playtesting, but I think anyone who looks at the rosters and screams "UNBALANCED!" is simply over-reacting. Do you think an Elf is worth 70K? Do you think player costs are generally accurate? If so, how are you going to argue that this...

* 2 Witch Elves
* 1 Thrower
* 4 Blitzers
* 4 Linemen
* Re-rolls at 50K

...is worse than this?

* 1 Gutter Runner
* 1 Chaos Warrior
* 1 Black Orc
* 1 Dark Elf Thrower
* 1 Norse Blitzer
* 3 Beastmen
* 1 Ogre
* 1 Minotaur
* 1 Troll
* Re-rolls at 90K

990K of on-field value vs 950K, and for that drop in talent they have to take the following:

* Extra 40K per re-roll cost at team creation
* Extra 80K per re-roll cost during the season
* 3 players who can't use re-rolls
* 3 racial characteristics, including Really Stupid and Wild Animal
* 3 Beastmen and a Minotaur who can't all use Horns

Heck, Dark Elves aren't even the best team you can field

Anyway, for what it's worth, I'm going to run a Chaos Pact team in our next league. (I also have a test league on the side featuring a number of experimental teams mixed among standard squads.)

Here's how I'm going to start my squad:

1 Orc Thrower (70K)
2 Goblins (80K)
1 Troll (100K)
2 Beastmen (120K)
6 Marauders (300K)
3 Re-rolls (270K)
6 Fan Factor

Wow, scary

I still want to purchase the following:

* An Apothecary (50K)
* 1 Minotaur (110K)
* 1 Ogre (120K)
* 1 Norse Blitzer (90K)
* 1 Gutter Runner (80K)
* 1 Dark Elf Kicker (90K)
* 1 Chaos Warrior (100K)
* A 4th re-roll (180K)

That's a whopping 820K, not counting any replacement players I need to keep most of the positional players from the original line-up active. Anyone got a spare team they can sell me?

These teams aren't designed to suck, so I think a good coach can go a long way with one. But given equal coaches, I'd probably take the Dark Elf squad.

Cheers.

-Chet

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 7:13 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote: Standard league ... the MBBL Season 2 will allow them.

Galak

Really? But these rules aren't official yet, I thought the MBBL was official rules only?

I'm not pro or con, just wondering.

However, I suppose the MBBL2 will allow them? I think I just found my new team...

-Dave