BBMag3 Mixed Race Rules

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:48 pm

Well, with those extra rules Thadrin, the Lustrian and the Old World team would become more balanced. The Chaos Pact team would still be problematic though:

1 Ogre
2 Goblins (to toss around)
1 Chaos warrior
2 Dark elf line-elves (play the ball from end to end)
1 Gutter runner (same as dark elves)
3 Marauders (linemen with block, cool)
4 Beastmen (blitz at ST4)
2 Orc lineorcs (AV9 for the LoS)

Even with only two positional allies and only one big guy, this team is still too strong, and way too versatile. Much more tweaking is required for it to come in line with the standard teams.

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 2:32 pm

Where's this "sick ST" I'm reading about?

* 1 BOB
* 1 Warrior
* 1 Ogre
* 1 Troll
* 1 Minotaur

vs

* 4 Warriors
* 1 Ogre

Given the choice, I'm going to take 3 Chaos Warriors over this:

* A slower, less agile, non-mutating BOB
* A Wild Animal
* A Really Stupid Troll

Zombie - You can do all the critiquing/criticizing/whatever you want. You want to prove it doesn't work? Play the team, not this board. I think your comparisons are way off, and - as Pariah said - clearly biased. For example, you leave out the following in your Lustrian-vs-Amazon comparison:

* Lose all that cool Block/Dodge.
* Skinks are ST2 and +1 to injury!
* Too easy to trap a Saurus into standing around all day.
* The re-rolls are MUCH more expensive.

You also left this out in your Chaos-vs-Pact comparison:

* Marauders are AV7, Beastmen are AV8.
* Marauders can't blitz for anything.
* 3 Warriors don't come with the drawbacks of a BOB, a Minotaur, and a Troll.
* Most of your new team doesn't mutate.
* The re-rolls are more expensive.

-----

All that said, let me add the following:

1. The teams are not up for review this October.
2. If the teams need tweaking, we'll be more than happy to tweak them.

Of course, we won't act on #2 without playtesting from leagues. And yes, we have easy fallback positions. Maybe the teams need to be cut to one Big Guy apiece. Maybe the Dark Elves and High Elves should be off their respective rosters. Maybe the re-roll price should climb another 10K per team.

But we're not going to make any changes without playtesting from coaches, because we've done all the same analysis you're doing now and as we see it, these are very good starting points that will require a minimum of tweaking to ensure that the team is enjoyable and yet not overpowered.

Most coaches tend to over-react when presented with a new roster. Want proof? Think back to when the Norse roster came out. Here's what we heard:

"Block for a pt of AV and he's still the same price?"

"Everyone starts with Block, the best skill in the game!"

"Frenzy, Jump Up, and Block for only 50K over a Hobgoblin? That's insane!"

Etc.

Norse turned out rather well, don't you think? On paper, complaints were numerous; on the field, non-existent. Let's see how heavy the rain is before we declare that the sky is falling, eh?

If the Human team didnt' exist and it was introduced just this week, I'd expect to hear the following sooner rather than later:

"The Throwers are way too good for that price, bad enough Orcs and Skaven already have this advantage."

"The Catchers start with too many skills! Even High Elf catchers aren't this good, and Wood Elf catchers aren't this cheap."

"With 10 position players and a Big Guy, why bother having Linemen? This team needs 2 catchers and 2 blitzers, max."

Think about it, then go take 'em for a test spin.

-Chet

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:01 pm

Trambi and I are about to start a PBeM game, with me playing my Old World roster, so testing is underway!

After that game is over, I welcome a challenge from anyone with a one-game-old Chaos Pact team or Lustrian team to see how they face off.

Wish I had time to play through a five game series between Old World and Chaos pact...just now I really don't though.

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:05 pm

Ok but try to not forget the log file

Post by **Thadrin** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:12 pm

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:16 pm

Sorry I have a match to play

Ghost of Pariah · Post by **Ghost of Pariah** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 6:29 pm

Would someone agree to send me the rules if I promise to buy the mag when it becomes available? lol
I want to put together a Chaos Pact team and have time to play around and see what I like best.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 9:14 pm

Acerak wrote:I think your comparisons are way off, and - as Pariah said - clearly biased. For example, you leave out the following in your Lustrian-vs-Amazon comparison:

* Lose all that cool Block/Dodge.
* Skinks are ST2 and +1 to injury!
* Too easy to trap a Saurus into standing around all day.
* The re-rolls are MUCH more expensive.

Point 1: That's actually an advantage, since they're not so vulnerable to two teams anymore, namely dwarf and chaos dwarf. They can now fall back on other things, and diversity is always a good thing.

Point 2: That's taken into account when saying that skinks are better catchers than amazon catchers. They're just there for offense anyway, on defense you put more muscle on the field.

Point 3: Not if he has break tackle. Besides, you also have that crazy norse blitzer on your team, and everyone knows that a simple amazon linewoman with block makes a great blitzer.

Point 4: I addressed that point in my post, explaining why it's irrelevant to this discussion.

Acerak wrote:You also left this out in your Chaos-vs-Pact comparison:

* Marauders are AV7, Beastmen are AV8.
* Marauders can't blitz for anything.
* 3 Warriors don't come with the drawbacks of a BOB, a Minotaur, and a Troll.
* Most of your new team doesn't mutate.
* The re-rolls are more expensive.

I didn't even make a Chaos Pact vs Chaos comparison! With that said...

Point 1: But marauders have block. And the 2 orc linemen have AV9. So what's your point?

Point 2: Marauders are not there to blitz, they're linemen. You get 4 beastman blitzers, isn't that enough? I've never needed more than 4 blitzers on any team.

Point 3: I didn't even include a minotaur and a troll. Did you even read my posts? And i'll tell you this: 3 warriors don't even come close to the what the two dark elf line-elves and the gutter runner bring to the team.

Point 4: You're old team doesn't have access to agility skills. I still have mutating players, but much more versatility now with all that agility access. Thanks for making a point for me.

Point 5: Again, already addressed in the post. Cost is irrelevant. I think you need to read my post more carefully because you obviously missed a few things, and this is one of them.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 10:21 pm

Well... I'm going to take the middle ground here and upset everybody!

OK my first impressions are that the team is overpowered. Not grossly so.... but overpowered nonetheless. The ability to mix several AG 4 players with a number of ST4 and ST5 players is very powerful. More so than having just [ST 4 and ST 5] or [AG 4]. So here I agree with Zombie.

That said, cost is a factor - you cannot ignore it. If you play hard ball, you will take casualties and therefore it will be difficult and lengthy to get the uber team that Zombie is scared of.

However, in no way can you argue that because its expensive, that makes it balanced. I mean no other team has the potential of one of the Pact teams. Either they have muscle and no agility or low av and Block etc. Sure the Chaos pact has some players with low av... but it also has other players who have av.

So the weakness of the team is that it has some strong players and some agile players and some fast players. Now is that a weakness? Well not really - but it does mean that if you can knock out the AG guys there are none to replace them... but then the Chaos Pact team will bring in muscle and well.... play like Chaos or Orcs.

So in conclusion, I believe that the Chaos Pact team has the potential to be a very powerful team - more so than any other team. It will take a long time though and will probably need a good coach to get them there. Does this make them balanced? My gut feel is no.... but they do need to be play tested to prove it either way.

Dave

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:07 pm

In wood elf team, you could have AG4 players and one STR6 player. Is this team overpowered ?
It's not the only critera for beeing overpowered.

Warprat · Post by **Warprat** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:13 am

I sure am glad I read all these posts before I went out and bought the mag.

I have no doubt that Chet is capable of making a ballenced "Generic Team." I just have no interest playing one, or playing against one. I don't like allies at all. I like teams with unique differences, all thier own.

I'd like to see some new teams. Just not this "Generic" stuff.

So, thanks for the info guys, that's extra money in my pocket!

Warprat ;)

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:29 am

Wouldn't it be nice to think that players who are into Blood Bowl enough to be into regular league play, and discussing it here, would be mature enough - and I think we can safely say we're all a long way past the average denizen of GW shops in age - to not need to max out orur teams like Zombie is suggesting "Just because we can"?

Interesting thought, and one I'd like ZOmbie to answer:
Do you thik these rosters are as imbalanced as you've been protesting at the TRR 100 starting level, as seen at most tournaments? I don't...because while you can put together a strong roster the costs of the rerolls and relative lack of skills at that level still has a lot of bite.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 8:09 am

No having 1 ST 6 Tree is not overpowering.

The difficulty comes when you can have several players that start with AG4 and several that start with ST 4 or 5. For the Chaos Pact, you can have 3 AG4 players and 3 ST5 players plus 2 ST4.

Chet said:-

Where's this "sick ST" I'm reading about?

* 1 BOB
* 1 Warrior
* 1 Ogre
* 1 Troll
* 1 Minotaur

vs

* 4 Warriors
* 1 Ogre

Given the choice, I'm going to take 3 Chaos Warriors over this:

I agree!.... However, if the Chaos team could take 3 AG4 players then I think you would agree that there was a balance problem.

I am not sold yet that this team is too strong.... however, it does need very careful review.

Dave

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 11:46 am

Thadrin wrote:Wouldn't it be nice to think that players who are into Blood Bowl enough to be into regular league play, and discussing it here, would be mature enough - and I think we can safely say we're all a long way past the average denizen of GW shops in age - to not need to max out orur teams like Zombie is suggesting "Just because we can"?

The rules should be made to prevent people from doing it in the first place, so that the problem never arises. We are not supposed to be the problem, we're supposed to be the solution.

Besides, we're all trying to win, aren't we? How many people here didn't think to come up with what they think is the best possible starting team for the Chaos Pact?

Thadrin wrote:Interesting thought, and one I'd like ZOmbie to answer:
Do you thik these rosters are as imbalanced as you've been protesting at the TRR 100 starting level, as seen at most tournaments? I don't...because while you can put together a strong roster the costs of the rerolls and relative lack of skills at that level still has a lot of bite.

I believe that they're too strong at TR 100, and way too strong at higher TR. Teams should be balanced (or at least pretty close) at all levels of development.

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 11:57 am

Look at it this way, if you were putting a team together to enter a tournament ( lets face it if your going to a tournament you want to win it, not just take part ) then if the Chaos pact team was Official, then would you take it or stick to your fave

Talk Fantasy Football

BBMag3 Mixed Race Rules

I think I'll save my money.