BBMag3 Mixed Race Rules

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 12:06 pm

Zombie wrote: The rules should be made to prevent people from doing it in the first place, so that the problem never arises. We are not supposed to be the problem, we're supposed to be the solution.

Besides, we're all trying to win, aren't we? How many people here didn't think to come up with what they think is the best possible starting team for the Chaos Pact?

I didn't. I immediately turned to the Old World team, because a combined Human/Dwarf team is something I've wanted for a while now (One of the other guys in my league has one and beat me quite handily with it, though that was about a year ago, preBBRR, and he had about 40TR on me.)

If we REALLY need rules for sportsmanship whats the point? Didn't you read that thing that I think it was JJ wrote about playing games that ignore points values because they're cool? or "Last stand" scenarios - where you KNOW your force is going to get massacred?

In answer to McDeth's question I would in a second take my Dwarfs ove r Chaos Pact to any tournament. I've spent a LOT of time on them, I know how to play them, and frankly the Chaos Pact roster doesn't really interest me that much.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:08 pm

Well IMO the Chaos Pact (or any of the other Pacts) will be balanced for tournament play. They are not incredibly strong out of the box. The issue is whether they can become too strong once they have played lots of games.

I doubt very many will take them at tournaments for this reason.

As for whether people are noble enough.... come on the rules should prohibit anything which is unfair - players will follow the rules - if Halflings suddenly became the best team... most people would start playing Flings.

Dave

Post by **Thadrin** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:17 pm

If thats true why do people play Halflings and Goblins now?

Jeez - when did Winning become more important than having a laugh?

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:19 pm

Playing 'flings or gobbos

these small things can't play BB.

McDeth · Post by **McDeth** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:33 pm

thats what i am trying to establish. if the Chaos pact is overpowered then the majority of players will take them

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 2:14 pm

For tournament play, I have no doubts that any of the Pact rosters are fine. I don't think tournaments are the big question with them.

Long term play is. Does the new winnings table, the FF mods, etc. etc. that cap growth make it so that the "ultimate" Pact team is unobtainable.

That is something only playtesting can tell.

Galak

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 2:30 pm

Sure some people play Gobbos or Flings. Some even play them at tournaments..... but you'll find that most people will play a team that they feel they play well with or have the best chance of winning. I say good for them (coaches playing with weaker teams) and I'm sure they have a great deal of fun - which is what we all want. I too have played Gobbos and done OK - its fun - but I wouldn't want to play them all the time.

If the rules allow a team to be better than any of the others, then IMO more people will play that race than any other. At the moment there is no clear winner... which suggests to me that a good balance exists. IMO it is important that this is maintained.

I hope you are right about sportsmanship - although - my view of sportsmanship is playing fairly within the rules of the game. If the rules allow one race to become ultra powerful can you really say that a Coach shouldn't take 2 Big Guys because he is not being a sport? - if the rules allow it, I don't see that as unsporting - sure locally you can House Rule (against) it. The point is that the rules shouldn't allow a Coach to run a team in a way that is unbalanced. That's why Stand Firm and Jump Up were moved to traits to stop Elves / Mummies becoming too powerful.

Dave

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 3:43 pm

hum, gobboz are already the best team !!!!!
Gobboz Style rulez!!!!

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 3:55 pm

my first impression is too say (overpowered) as i tryed to play some mixed team in the past.
But in here is the skaven/gobbo roster we are using in the league:
0/6 gobboz 40k
0/2gobboz catchers (7 2 3 7 dodge catch,right stuff...) 60k
0/6Linskav 50k
0/2Storm vermin 90
0/2Skav thrower 70

Special rules: at each drive, you should roll a dice for each player:
on a '1', we would not play with any player of another race.

An other rule i remenber that we used was: roll a dice for each non-lineman (chaos lineman for example in chaos stack) , on a 1, you loose a RR for the half time. I fyou have to loose 3 RR but you only have 2, then you loose your 2RR and give one to your opponent. That was a very good team with DE thrower and 1 DE lineman, 1 Gunter and some others stuff
but the lack of RR could be sometimes hard. But in most of times it was cool for my Chaos team....

So it should be more tested i believe with some special rules...

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 4:17 pm

I'm still saying that all of the 3 mixed teams are too powerful even for short term play (i.e. a short season or a tourney). For example, if you need to win every game, for the first game you could have a Chaos Pact team that looks like this:

1 Skaven thrower
2 Dark elf line-elves
4 Marauders
1 Beastman
2 Goblins
1 Black orc blocker
1 Troll
1 Ogre
1 Fan factor
1 Team reroll
1 Apothecary

That's 13 players, 1 apothecary and 1 team reroll, plus lots of skills and variety.

Alternately, you could have an Old World team like this one:

1 Human thrower
1 High elf thrower
2 Wood elf line-elves
4 Longbeards
1 Troll slayer
1 Human lineman
1 Halfling
1 Ogre
1 Fan factor
1 Team reroll
1 Apothecary

12 players, 1 apothecary and 1 team reroll. A great LoS and a great passing game as well. Still many skills to partially negate the lack of team rerolls.

Note that both teams can also score in one turn if necessary (yeah, they might fail, but the threat is there).

I wouldn't want to face any of those teams in a tourney with any of the 15 standard teams.

Pink Horror · Post by **Pink Horror** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 7:12 pm

Thadrin wrote: I didn't. I immediately turned to the Old World team, because a combined Human/Dwarf team is something I've wanted for a while now (One of the other guys in my league has one and beat me quite handily with it, though that was about a year ago, preBBRR, and he had about 40TR on me.)

If we REALLY need rules for sportsmanship whats the point? Didn't you read that thing that I think it was JJ wrote about playing games that ignore points values because they're cool? or "Last stand" scenarios - where you KNOW your force is going to get massacred?

In answer to McDeth's question I would in a second take my Dwarfs ove r Chaos Pact to any tournament. I've spent a LOT of time on them, I know how to play them, and frankly the Chaos Pact roster doesn't really interest me that much.

Well, it's nice that you think that way, but not everyone does. Would a tournament for you be fun if half the guys you played against took maxed-out super teams and only tried to win? Right now, in Blood Bowl, you can play to win without the danger of crushing the other guys who are only playing for fun. That's because the optimum team, whatever it may be, is only a little better than an average team. I was just mentioning something similiar in another thread. Blood Bowl doesn't currently need any theme judges to make sure each roster isn't min/max'ed. Let's keep it that way. Jervis's article wasn't about Blood Bowl. Blood Bowl is a sport, which allows two equal teams battling each other an even ground make sense. He was more concerned with how every battle in the WH40k and WHFB universes seem to be two equal armies squaring off against each other for no particular reason. But, at a tournament for any of these games, you can't expect everyone to be happy thinking that their chances aren't level for their favorite tournament teams. The guys with the halfling teams don't care, but I'm sure some others do.

I'd like to see these mixed race rules so I can get a good opinion on them. Has anyone typed them up yet? Is someone willing to share?

Pink Horror

Post by **Thadrin** » Wed Sep 04, 2002 6:48 am

Zombie wrote:1 Skaven thrower
2 Dark elf line-elves
4 Marauders
1 Beastman
2 Goblins
1 Black orc blocker
1 Troll
1 Ogre
1 Fan factor
1 Team reroll
1 Apothecary

Seriously though...you honestly think that's worse than lets say, the team Woody took to Amsterdam (Orcs: 4 Blitzers, 4 BoBs, 1 Ogre, 1 Thrower, 1 Goblin). It would be a good game. A lot would hinge on how often the troll stood around picking his nose. You have 7 players with AV7 or worse.
I don't see that being a winning line up.

Pink Horror wrote: Well, it's nice that you think that way, but not everyone does. Would a tournament for you be fun if half the guys you played against took maxed-out super teams and only tried to win? Right now, in Blood Bowl, you can play to win without the danger of crushing the other guys who are only playing for fun. That's because the optimum team, whatever it may be, is only a little better than an average team. I was just mentioning something similiar in another thread. Blood Bowl doesn't currently need any theme judges to make sure each roster isn't min/max'ed. Let's keep it that way. Jervis's article wasn't about Blood Bowl. Blood Bowl is a sport, which allows two equal teams battling each other an even ground make sense. He was more concerned with how every battle in the WH40k and WHFB universes seem to be two equal armies squaring off against each other for no particular reason. But, at a tournament for any of these games, you can't expect everyone to be happy thinking that their chances aren't level for their favorite tournament teams. The guys with the halfling teams don't care, but I'm sure some others do.

Thing is, I'm not convinced in the least that these rosters are unbalanced for tournament play! I think that, as the argument against them seems to rest on there being enormous growth potential, the initial balance required for tourney play - remember: no extra players, no money, no carried over Casualties - is not an issue, except for the extra Big Guys, which I think - despite my love of the fluff -should go.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Sep 04, 2002 2:12 pm

Yes, i believe it's tons better than that orc team. I believe the orc team would stand no chance against them, and remember that orcs are currently the only overpowered team, with ST4, throwers, catchers and TTM. If an overpowered team stands no chance against a new team, what does that tell us about the new team?

7 players out of 13 with AV7 means it's not a winning team? If that were true, then skaven, wood elves, amazon and norse would never win a single game, so we know it's not true. Besides, they've got enough AV9 players to put on the line for AV7 not to be a factor.

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:41 pm

Point 1: That's actually an advantage, since they're not so vulnerable to two teams anymore, namely dwarf and chaos dwarf. They can now fall back on other things, and diversity is always a good thing.

You know, that's the first thing I look for in a new team, and I think a lot of newbies have missed this. I mean, when I see a player who can't normally take Block/Dodge with a skill roll or two, I immediately think to myself, "Wow, I sure am glad I won't have that problem! Because now they're less vulnerable to Dwarf and Chaos Dwarf teams." I think this explains my recent fascination for Chaos squads. And Goblins

Ok, all joking aside: the mixed-race teams deserve close scrutiny, especially in long term play. Short-term, I don't think they're a real problem. And if you build them for short-term play, you'll suffer long-term. (Sorry, Zombie, but I think your proposed "short-term winners" would get you clobbered in 9 of 10 tourneys by 10 of 11 coaches.)

Anyway, I'm already putting together a special league just to watch these teams in a neutral environment. (Yes, it will include control squads that are not themselves mixed-race teams.) In fact, I'm willing to bet I'll play more games with them than 99% of the coaches out there in the course of the next year. If they're overpowering, I'll know it. I've already got fall-back positions mapped out. There are no lack of options. Unlike some "paper posters," however, there is no lack of drive to give the teams a chance first.

Cheers.

-Chet

neverdodge · Post by **neverdodge** » Tue Sep 10, 2002 8:50 pm

Acerak wrote:
Anyway, I'm already putting together a special league just to watch these teams in a neutral environment. (Yes, it will include control squads that are not themselves mixed-race teams.) In fact, I'm willing to bet I'll play more games with them than 99% of the coaches out there in the course of the next year. If they're overpowering, I'll know it. I've already got fall-back positions mapped out. There are no lack of options. Unlike some "paper posters," however, there is no lack of drive to give the teams a chance first.

i m agree on that one, we must all remember those rules aren t yet official, i m not an experimented coach, and i can t tell if they are balanced or not, but i think only playtesting can give us the answer.

And if you don t like them you still got the choice to put one of that team together and try to defeat a "standard" team coached by a coach saying they re not overpowered.