So - about that human catcher

[Gaixo]

Hm, I could have sworn that gnoblars came out while I was still working at the game shop, and that was indeed 20(+) years ago. I'm surprised that I even know they exist, as I have a big gaming blind spot for that period when they were released.

And JPB, I agree with most of your sentiments. I think it's a shame that revisions to Warhammer have to carry over. Then again, my era of Warhammer is the really old one, so maybe I just want that stuff to be favored.

[JPB]

And JPB, I agree with most of your sentiments. I think it's a shame that revisions to Warhammer have to carry over. Then again, my era of Warhammer is the really old one, so maybe I just want that stuff to be favored.

No, I don't think complaining about it is bias at all. There is no reason why BB has to be submissive to Warhammer. (at least artistically (is that the word?))
It is helpful to base it on Warhammer. And there is nothing wrong with drawing inspiration from Warhammer. But when it's nothing but an imperative, it literally is not doing anyone any favours. In fact, it's slowly corrupting the original spirit and creates oddities and weird situations that don't add up any more. Which has been even acknowledged by GW (or at least JJ), if I remember correctly. BB and Warhammer are totally different beasts in so many regards.
The only positive aspect of it is possibly that people working on BB don't have to be trained on the subject any more. But that is, obviously, also the crux. At least, if you are a BB fan who doesn't take Warhammer for granted as the one and only background.

Could the plight of the humans be caused by the fact that more than half of their players are offense specialists, and not particularly useful on defense? I mean, you don't really want to put a lot of catchers in on defense - because of their reduced stats.

Actually, that is more less my opinion. I think the human team can score, if they want to. At least they should have more than enough tools for that (MA, Sure Hands, Dodge). The struggle lies more in holding the line, bash, defence, etc.

I think this is also the area where beginners or less experienced coaches struggle.

And why I was thinking in the direction of adding a blocker position (replace Zug) or an Ogre without Loner, to add more beef. (or “uumph” We need more, you know, “Uumph”! - in lack of better words . Actually, the majority of suggestions, suggest something along those lines.)
Even the AV8 catcher can somewhat help with that, as it would make a Diving Tackle/Side Step piece more resilient (not sure how big of a deal that is, though).
And to be honest, I still consider that a rather minor adjustment not every coach can profit from (i.e. less experienced coaches may still struggle with compensating for ST2). More experienced coaches can find ways to make it work (the jack of all trades article explains some approaches, like using Dodge to reposition the Catcher to get 2D blocks etc.). However, that's not particularly easy.
Still, the AV8 adjustment may help beginners (who make the error of leaving the player in contact too often) and a slight buff for experienced coaches (those who push Human from 13th to 8th place, apparently, and probably with AV7 catchers), but the struggle with a ST2 piece is still there. And to those who struggle with it, AV8 doesn't make the player that much more attractive.

So, I do agree that the Human problem could be called a defence (or toughness?) problem. Especially as they don't have the agility (AG4) to compensate (?). Or, you could also say that for a “middle of a road” team it's their bash side (toughness and staying power) that appears less capable than their flash side.

Even the Human Blitzer is not particularly tough. A rookie Human Blitzer is not different to a Dark Elf Blitzer. The only thing that makes them bash (eventually) is S access (but that's late game potential aka they need to be build up for that role). And even then I think they would shine more in a support role, than they do in a team carrying one.

However, the 4 Blitzer team design has its charm. It's just a bit challenging.

[Vanguard]

And why I was thinking in the direction of adding a blocker position (replace Zug) or an Ogre without Loner, to add more beef. (or “uumph” We need more, you know, “Uumph”! - in lack of better words . Actually, the majority of suggestions, suggest something along those lines.)

I'm going from memory here, so not sure of the source (or accuracy), but I recall reading that at one point (2nd Edition?) teams were based around five positionals (Lineman, Blitzer, Blocker, Catcher, Thrower) but no team would have all five. However, it would make some thematic sense for Humans, as the jack-of-all-trades team, to have all five positions.

[kyrre]

Orcs and humans lineups were identical and both had all 5 positions you list.

[PercyTheTroll]

Only(!) added 13 years ago.

Anything that happened after '95 is bad and wrong. (there's a part of me that genuinely believes this).

[JPB]

I'm going from memory here, so not sure of the source (or accuracy), but I recall reading that at one point (2nd Edition?) teams were based around five positionals (Lineman, Blitzer, Blocker, Catcher, Thrower) but no team would have all five. However, it would make some thematic sense for Humans, as the jack-of-all-trades team, to have all five positions.

Orcs and humans lineups were identical and both had all 5 positions you list.

Actually, both could be correct. It's definitely true that 2nd edition (1988) Human and Orc Teams had all 5 positions. But it's possible that 3rd edition (1994) made an unwritten rule that no team should have all 5 positions from now on. Which I believe is still true for all teams (right?).

I guess one could count Goblins as catchers, so Orcs would have all 5. But other than that? Wood Elf with the Treeman (?). Norse has all 5 if counting the runner as a catcher, which is arguable, could also be a blitzer.
However, I guess it's more a guideline (and basically a good one) that should be followed, but can be broken if it makes sense.

And I should add that I'm not really a fan of giving human 0-2 blockers. I only believe that's what they are missing to be top tier.

P.S.

Anything that happened after '95 is bad and wrong. (there's a part of me that genuinely believes this).

That may go a bit too far. Some people on this forum may be born after '95

[Christy42]

Are humans and zons the only ag3 catchers?

Plenty of people have mentioned that a lot of the human skills are offense based. Is there any small defensive skill that could be justified for the thrower/blitzers. Maybe make the linemen more durable with thick skull or something similar (they are used to getting hit and quite frankly would be sent back on the field when better players would be rested). Really dig into the sort of infantry getting all the bad jobs stick the Human linemen have going on.

Overall I think humans are fine as is but I would have no argument with them being higher up tier 1. My main issue with the discussion would be that the box teams are not balanced. Still I am not sure it matters that much given the lack of skills the starter players presumably have. If it is noticeable by beginners then something should change to match those sides up better (I.e. I would not be in favour of the improved Ogre for that reason as it would not help the in the box humans).

[EastCoast]

Im reading all this and wondering, if we were to alter the Human roster at some point In the future, how would that be received if it shifted between tiers as a result?

Last I checked they were bottom of tier 1, top of tier 1.5. Humans got a few mild boosts with BB2016. Being able to roster Griff as an example is a boon because unlike most star players he has stat increases (+AG, +ST) that his native roster doesn't have access to without lucky skill ups.

I really like the Human roster as constructed with one minor exception, the only change I would make would be to remove dodge from the catchers, give them strength 3 and price them at 80K. That wouldn't skew TV 1000 or 1100 tourneys because they still require 2 skill ups to become blodgers leaving the Blitzers as the signature Human positional. On the higher end of the TV spectrum it gives them some interesting build options and a fast positional to take advantage of Guard on the Blitzers. I think they'd top out around the same place as the Necros, which for hybrid teams is about as good as it gets.

If you decided to drop the Blitzer price to 80K, then I'd price the catchers at 90K. Regardless it lets them fill a nice niche between the Elves and Skaven, and keeps them different enough from the Norse and Amazons. It's one of those changes that wouldn't shake up the Tiers a ton, keeps the current "feel" of the existing team, but makes the team an attractive long term league option. They won't be world beaters, but they will be able to hang with any of the Tier 1 rosters.

[Artemis Black]

Well, I believe Jim and Bob are a humans in an Ogre and Vampire suits...

God, I forgot about that one. That only appeared once in WD 101, 1988 (a picture of them two as Human), then 2nd edition continued to use them, but never made any other hint to their species. So if reading their 2nd edition dialogue today one always sees the Ogre and Vampire, and nothing deters from that, but they are possibly supposed to be Human at that point (well, possibly, as there is no actual prove , other than the WD of course).

Exactly.The human team may look appealing to the new player who wants to try some awesome NFL-warhammer smashmouth football.Then the orc opponent takes care of the smashmouth thing. And all you get is an introduction to the the lose-o-meter (range ruler).

Actually there could be a lot of other options as well:

-Put 4 Human Blitzer, but only 2 Black Orcs in the box
-Give the Human team 0-2 Blocker (Necromantic concept)
-Remove Loner from the Ogre (TRR to manage Bone-head, and a more reliable hitter)
-Have the Orc team use a Goblin for every Human Catcher
-Give the Catcher AV8, making the player more forgiving to use. (However, Dodge+AV7 is actually a very good protection (about AV8.5) as long as the opponents' block chances are kept on 31%. AV8 is more a late game thing when Dodge is regularly cancelled by Block or Tackle, imo)
-Give the Catcher ST3 (as ST2 can feel like being a player down especially when the opponent has already a ST advantage) (and bashy is already easier than flashy imo)
-Give both teams (Human and Orc) exactly the same roster as it was in 1st (1986) and 2nd (1988) edition (mirror match-up)
-Add a guide explaining the most fundamental elements of mastering BB (which may also go a long way)
-Replace Human with Dark Elf. In my experience Dark Elf vs Orc is a fairly equal match-up
-Replace Human with Dark Elf but use Human miniatures. Although I don't think the Warhammer concept (the human eye looking out onto a hostile world) applies as much to BB

However, a lot of this really depends on what you actually want. If it's really just a fair match up for beginners make it Dark Elf (Block & AG4) vs Orc (Block & ST4).

But as pointed out the Human Catcher is not really a broken player, and placing all problems of the Human team (and how to get beginners into the game) on the Catcher's shoulders may run the risk of overburden it, and perhaps even tunnel vision.

Perhaps it needs a more specific goal (fix the human team. The human catcher. Or the beginners' match-up).

Apologies for necroing the thread, seemed easier than piling in with a new one.

The highlighted option has always been my preferred 'fix' for the Human Team.

I 'do' think Humans should be tier 1, I've never agreed with everyone just shrugging their shoulders at the inherent unbalanced nature of BB at all but as far as humans go, when they come in the box, they should be 'good' (The makeup of the plastic teams are also 'awful', which should be addressed in a re-release).

I think 0-2 5428 blockers with 'guard' (but not block) is actually my preferred solution. It introduces an incredibly important skill into the game from the offset for players to get to grips with. I'd also give Guard to Mighty Zug and have him then be a star player blocker with +ST, +AV Block and Mighty Blow with a -MV injury.

As for Catchers I'm undecided, I think having them ST2 has always been silly. Especially with the new excuse for the AV7, the tiny difference in armour on the model being enough for an AV drop makes no sense when they in no way look weedy enough to be ST2. So I think 8337 is the way to go.

[Darkson]

Guard is a big no-no as a skill on a rookie player.

[plasmoid]

I'd say that depends on the team as well as the positional.
But yeah, I too would be worried about an ST4 player starting with Guard.

[Artemis Black]

There was no 'because' with either of those comments?

Just having guard on a starting player being a 'no no' seems like one of those random things. Things are a no no until they aren't.

The ST4 Guard combo is definitely a much bigger deal I'd agree but with the idea being to buff Humans to strong Tier 1 then a big deal is needed. ST4 with any skills is going to be a big deal, but ST4 without skils basically makes them HumanBobs, which would be fine too, just a little bland. Humans are a weak bashing team, with AG3 they're never going to be a passing team, they just have the option, so the bit that needs to be buffed is their bash ability imo. Literally anything would do, doesn't have to be a bump straight to a top race, that's more personal preference.

Everyone's made the arguments a thousand times. Humans are mediocre at everything. That can't be sat on a twisted into a strength.

It's always bothered me that the boxed game comes with not only a below average race/team but 2 bad team makeups too. It starts players off on the wrong foot. What kind of message is 'Learn to play the game and you'll find out we sold you an absolutely rubbish set of minis for what you'll actually want'

(Personally I've also always hated that people are just fine with the game being unbalanced between races 'just because'. Most games the idea is to either balance all sides or work in some kind of rock paper scissors element. The dice add enough randomness, Any teams consistently performing below average should long ago have been slightly buffed with every edition until the figures were much closer.)

[Heff]

Starting with guard is bad because it is a force multiplier. If I put this player here then that player gets 2 dice. If I put this player with GUARD here then it gives these THREE players 2 dice. In some ways it could be argued that in fact guard is a bad skill because the player with it can negate other people's tackle zone while his can never be negated. In fact this force multiplier ability is the reason that Flesh Golems on my teams ALWAYS get guard first. It is nice for them to get two dice with block, it is NICER to give the wolves 2 2 dice blocks (hopefully with block).

[plasmoid]

Hi Artemis,
I reacted to exactly the same thing about Darksons post, so I can see why you'd see my post in the same light. So I'll expand.
Guard is a very strong skill. IMO especially on starting teams, where nobody else has it.
ST4 is also in itself a big deal.

Furthermore, Cyanide tried something as marginal as AV8 on the catchers, and AFAIK that pushed the human win percentage to around 50%.
So they don't need a lot.
IMO, both Guard and ST4 is a lot. And combined they're a heck of a lot.

Cheers
Martin

[MacHurto]

I like the blocker solution (0-2 5339, GS access) because it follows the 2 ed fluff. It also gives humans a bit more ST and durability which they need, instead of 0-4 catchers).

St 4 players don’t fit humans, imho.