Big Guys, Starplayers and Freeboters / Team Re-Rolls ?

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 5:40 pm

Living Rulebook 1.1 says Big Guys are NOT allowed to use Team Re-Rolls.

Starplayers are allowed to use Team Re-Rolls, since Living Rulebook no where states they are not. (does it ?)

So what about Players like Morg'n Thorg, who are both, a Starplayer, and a Big Guy ?

Additionally, Freebooters who are hired at half the price before the Match, are they allowed to use Team Re-Rolls ? I would say no, since they lack Team Training.

Would you think it would we a good Idea to give the Pro Skill by default to Big Guys, Freebooters, and Starplayers and dissalowing them ALL to use Team Re-Rolls.

Next Question, the PRO Skill. Living Rulebook says a Player with the Pro skill may be allowed to re-roll any ONE Dice Roll. What about Blocking Dice, and what about 2 or 3 Dice Blocking rolls. Would you agree that PRO should allow the Player to re roll ONE of the two (three) Blocking Dice. ???

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:51 pm

Living Rulebook 1.1 says Big Guys are NOT allowed to use Team Re-Rolls.
Starplayers are allowed to use Team Re-Rolls, since Living Rulebook no where states they are not. (does it ?)
So what about Players like Morg'n Thorg, who are both, a Starplayer, and a Big Guy ?

Big Guys cannot use re-rolls and have negative traits, Stars can use rerolls and don't have negative traits.

Additionally, Freebooters who are hired at half the price before the Match, are they allowed to use Team Re-Rolls ? I would say no, since they lack Team Training.

Would make an interesting house rule, but Freebooters can use team rerolls.

Would you think it would we a good Idea to give the Pro Skill by default to Big Guys, Freebooters, and Starplayers and dissalowing them ALL to use Team Re-Rolls.

No, I have no problems with Freebooters and Starplayers using Re-rolls. If you are using the LRB rules, both Freebooters and Star are GREATLY reduced options due to cash flow, and if you told me that I'll freeboot a lot if my freebooter gets Pro for free and no team re-rolls. Big Guys already cannot use Team Re-rolls and Pro is a very valuable skill to them so they should not have it.

Next Question, the PRO Skill. Living Rulebook says a Player with the Pro skill may be allowed to re-roll any ONE Dice Roll. What about Blocking Dice, and what about 2 or 3 Dice Blocking rolls. Would you agree that PRO should allow the Player to re roll ONE of the two (three) Blocking Dice. ???

The dice roll is the blocking roll ... don't read too much into the skill. Pro allows you reroll all the dice involved with the block.

Galak

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:55 pm

I disagree. Its any ONE Dice Roll, so no armour or injury, but only "action skills".

That can as well interpretated that you are not allowed Blocking rolls at All.

Are Big Guys Starplayers or Big Guys when it comes to Re-Rolls ?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:09 pm

Toby, you're slicing hairs.

Pro can be used to reroll all the dice related to one roll. So you can reroll the entire block. However, armour and injury rolls are untouchable. Its an oversight in the Pro description to say any dice roll since it cannot effect armour or injury ... but that's all it is an oversight.

Morg, Ripper, Deeproot, and Headsplitter are Stars not Big Guys. All Stars can use team re-rolls. The proof that they are not Big Guys is that you can have one Ogre on your team and still freeboot Morg ... so that means that Morg doesn't count as a Big Guy.

Galak

longfang · Post by **longfang** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:30 pm

OK, I'm looking for a "doubledutch" translation program, can anyone help?

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:35 pm

Galak, im sorry. i remember we had HUGE discussions about the pro skill being far to mighty. the solution was reading the text EXACTLY.

"ONCE per Team Turn, a Pro is allowed to reroll any ONE dice Roll he has made"

that limits the Pro skill to: "Dodging, Catching, Leaping, Throwing" (did i forget something?)

therefore i suggest the Text should be completed to clarify by adding "...any ONE dice Roll or Blocking Roll he has made"

I disagree on the Big Guys as Well. Morg & CO ARE Big Guys, so all Big guy Rules should apply to them. However since they are Starplayers they should be considered PRO's and therefore have the 50% chance to get their Re-Roll.

Freebooters are Blood Bowl "Soldiers" so they are Pro's as well.

This is the way i think i will include these topics in my ruleset.

longfang · Post by **longfang** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:47 pm

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:53 pm

Toby,

last post back.

You posted a rules question which I answered:

In the 2001 Rules Review:
1) All Star Players can use team rerolls.
2) All Freebooters can use team rerolls.
3) Pro allows you to reroll FULLY any roll made by that player other than armour and injury even during your opponent's turn.

These are facts, I'm not trying to debate the right and wrong, I'm simply answering your question. Now, if you don't like these rules and want to use different house rules for your league ... fine and cool, carry on far be it for me to discount house rules ... but the original post here was asking for a rules answer. Most of the time I know the rules since I run two very large BB leagues, its self defense.

Galak

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:59 pm

I respect your answer, based on living rulebook.
As for the Pro skill, you are wrong, thats a FACT ^^.

Go ahead read the text and we might agree that this reqires a clarification.

As to the Big Guys, when upgrading from the 3d edition, the Big Guy Feature is completely new. So we might agree there as well that there should be a clarification again weather the all new Big Guy rules apply fully to the Big Guy that were already featured before (Starplayers).

The Freebooter Thing is "a House Rule", of course. (but a nice one i think)

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:21 pm

I'm beginning to think that this is a very clever wind up, it can't be for real....can it?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:48 pm

Okay, I lied not the last post:

Deathwing, I begin to suspect the same ... or I'll simply stop banging my head against a wall as longfang has accurately suggested I am doing here.

Toby,
I league commish over two leagues with 106 teams actively playing in them, so when you throw down a gauntlet like this at me ...

As for the Pro skill, you are wrong, thats a FACT ^^.
Go ahead read the text and we might agree that this reqires a clarification.

I'm going to pick it up.
Read the text ... fine let's read the text shall we:

Code: Select all

Pro                      (General Skill)
A player with this skill is a hardened veteran. Such players are
called professionals or Pro’s by other Blood Bowl players because
they rarely, if ever, make a mistake. Once per team turn, a Pro is
allowed to re-roll any one dice roll he has made. However, before
the re-roll may be made, his coach must roll a dice. On a roll of 4,
5 or 6 the re-roll may be made. On a roll of 1, 2 or 3 the original
result stands and may not be re-rolled with a skill or team re-roll.

NOW lets grab the Webster's dictionary definition of dice:

Code: Select all

die
n. pl. dice 
A small cube marked on each side with from one to six dots, usually used in pairs in gambling and in various other games.

So we see from the dictionary that dice is the plural of the word die ... so a single dice roll by definition can be multiple dies. However the gaming world a long time ago decided that a die would be called a dice. So the plural and the singular are now the same. So don't trying and convince me that any one dice roll would not include blocking since more than one die is used. Unless you want to argue that the plural of dice is dices, then by definition one dice roll can contain two or more gaming cubes.

If I'm still wrong in your eyes let me know. This isn't a case of clarification needed. This is a case of splicing a rule too finely and then when pointed out that you've done so insisting that the sky is really is green everyday at noon while outside having lunch.

Okay, I came to this board to avoid these types of arguments ... so I'll do my part to not continue them ... sorry everyone ... when I try to help and the reply is WRONG with FACT thrown in I have to respond.

Galak

longfang · Post by **longfang** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:59 pm

Great reading......who wants some more?

Toby · Post by **Toby** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:06 pm

^^ that is a smilie that indicates not to take that to seriously.

I absolutely think you are wrong. I dont want to get to the point showing of who of us is more into blood bowl.

Originally i interpretated the rule as you do now. (3rd Edition Boxed rules).

When people started to use Dirty Player in combination with Pro and Claws, that was the beginning of a HUGE dispute about the Pro Skill and Re-Rolls. Such combos are removed for good by now.

English is not my native Language but from what i learned and people in my Gaming Group who were STUDIING English translated, u DIE in an Accident, u roll the DICE or Multiple DICES. Again i am not a native english speaker.

I cannot understand why you completely ignore my argument that limiting Pro to ONE dice(die) was in our opinion the intention of the rule because else it would be far to mighty, based on the 3rd Edition Boxed rules.

I want to say i am a little pissed by your attitiude that seems to say that you are the Living Rulemaster and your interpretation is the only possible and correct.

In this case, you are WRONG. If that hits your Ego, im sorry. Nevertheless i am glad to learn from you since i do not doubt your knowledge of the game in general.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:48 pm

Toby wrote:

English is not my native Language but from what i learned and people in my Gaming Group who were STUDIING English translated, u DIE in an Accident, u roll the DICE or Multiple DICES. Again i am not a native english speaker.

I am. There is no such word as "dices". Or 'sheeps' for that matter. Unless you're Gollum of course.

I cannot understand why you completely ignore my argument that limiting Pro to ONE dice(die) was in our opinion the intention of the rule because else it would be far to mighty, based on the 3rd Edition Boxed rules.

Your argument wasn't ignored, it was addressed, and eloquently to boot.
Your intrepretation is just that. 'Your intrepretation'. Limiting Pro to just ONE die (or dice) is wrong. Simple as that really. If you'd like to ignore the way that the rest of the world plays and house rule for your own league then that's fine.

I want to say i am a little pissed by your attitiude that seems to say that you are the Living Rulemaster and your interpretation is the only possible and correct.
In this case, you are WRONG. If that hits your Ego, im sorry. Nevertheless i am glad to learn from you since i do not doubt your knowledge of the game in general.

Galak isn't the Living Rulemaster (but there are others that have done you the courtesy of replying to some of posts who are the nearest you'll get, i.e. BBRC members) and his 'interpretation' IS correct.

OK, I give up!
<sarcasm>You're right, Galak and the rest of the US is wrong, myself and the rest of the UK are wrong. Coaches in Canada, Australia, France, Holland, New Zealand, Spain, Denmark, Sweden, South Africa, (not to mention the majority of German coaches), they're all wrong too. (I didn't forget anybody, did I guys?)The BBRC are wrong. Jervis Johnson is wrong. Only you can interpret language minutiae correctly in what isn't even your native tongue (not to mention creating new words), just as only you (apparently) can see the obvious inbalance in the current ruleset.</sarcasm>

..and you have the gall to talk about ego! Priceless, absolutely priceless!
Enough of this, it's tiresome now.....

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Fri Jun 14, 2002 12:22 am

Toby,

Couple things ...

I came to TalkBB to avoid ego ... I tried to respond to you without ego or incident. I'm not a living rulemaster promise, but I am a "decent" source for the rules.

Also you are correct that if Pro could be used to reroll armour and injury then Pro mixed with Dirty Player and RSC. That's why in the 2001 Rules Review armour and injury rolls can no longer be re-rolled by anything and this includes Pro ... so the BBRC agreed with your league's opinion and in fact enforced it in the current ruleset.

Now I realize that the Pro skill doesn't say any dice roll except armour and injury ... but it should ... its a error in the Living RuleBook ... an oversight that will be fixed in one of the newer edition as the bugs in this new rulebook are cleaned up .. the thing in only weeks old and GW is working quickly to iron out the bugs.

I'll be honest, I've researched this game for a long time. I give a lot of my time to helping folks learn more about the game. If you have a question, I'll answer it as best I can and move on. I don't like flaming matches and I and others here have vowed to not allow this forum to have them ... thats what the BBC is for.

Galak