Khemri - Raise the Dead

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:55 am

ljm asked about this in another thread, but I didn't see an answer for it.
So:

-Can the Khemri head coach raise the dead?

If so, what kind of players he produces?

Two suggestions:

Dull suggestion on the lines of original RTD:
A dead player is raised as a skeleton with no skills and basic skeleton stats.

A better suggestion:
The player gets -1MA, -1AG,-1AV, loses all skills except physical and racial abilities and gains regenerate and becomes thus a skeleton of his race.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:22 am

Specifically states the Khemri coach cannot cast raise the dead. He's devoting all his energies into regenerating the players and channelling the gods Blitz-Ra and Thro-Ra.

Marcus

ljm · Post by **ljm** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:35 am

Thank you!

ljm

manusate · Post by **manusate** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 12:59 pm

As Marcus said, the Khemri coaches cannot raise dead. This is ok. They don´t have zombies, just ancient enchanted skeletons.

A better suggestion:
The player gets -1MA, -1AG,-1AV, loses all skills except physical and racial abilities and gains regenerate and becomes thus a skeleton of his race.

This kind of Raise Dead modifications has been proposed and discussed now and then, and it seems a very good and logical idea, until you actually play it.
You can get really nasty zombies (or skellies, whatever) like, for example:

Gutter Runner Zombie 8 2 3 6
Saurus Zombie 5 4 1 8
Black Ork Zombie 3 4 1 8

This is bad news. ST 4 Zombie Blockers, and MA 8 and AG 3 Zombie Catchers. Kinda unbalanced, dont you think?
By the way, when comes to league play, things get even worse. The Undead teams just forget about the game and just desperately try to kill one of those sweeties. Undead Coaches just focus on building up an uber team for the following season. A revived guy should never be any better than a regular Zombie you can buy for 30k. That would ruin the fun.

Aphorism: If it´s not broken, don´t try to fix it.

Manu

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 2:52 pm

manusate wrote: This kind of Raise Dead modifications has been proposed and discussed now and then, and it seems a very good and logical idea, until you actually play it.

Having played with these rules I must also say that the criticism about this being overpowered seems very logical and real until you notice that gathering a team of sweetie zombies is actually rather hard. With regeneration at 4+ they won't last forever either.

Yes, if the team manages to kill one player each game and that happens to be a really great player the team would become overpowered. There's no doubt about that. Same as if a team would roll double-6 for most of their skill rolls - the option is there but it's not too likely to happen.

The Undead teams just forget about the game and just desperately try to kill one of those sweeties

Most coaches with strength teams try to desperately kill any opponent they can lay a hand on

Point is: deaths just don't happen often enough for this to be an efficient tactic.
It is possible, I don't deny that, but unlikely for a team to get overpowered by this.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 3:01 pm

And btw: zombies get -2MA -1AG as their stat changes, so

-Strong zombies you can get are hideously slow and inagile - MA2 for BoB's, MA3 for CW's
-Even the fast zombies are usually MA7 at most.

No, that doesn't render them useless.

But this ain't 3rd ed so the undead coach expecting to take over the league in season 2 by concentrating on killing in season 1 will be very disappointed with what will probably be his only achievement:

Watch out, for the 3 2 2 6 Stunty, Right Stuff halfling zombie is coming!

manusate · Post by **manusate** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:26 pm

Maybe its my mistake, I didn´t explain properly. My english is not as good as it used to.

What happens in a game of Skaven vs Undead (for example) under that kind of rules (those you suggested or similar) is something like EVERYBODY on the Undead squad hunting down a Gutter Runner in order to kill him. They just forget about the ball, just hunt down some targeted player (imagine their lust for a Very Long Legs Gutter Runner or a +1st Black Orc or even an Ogre if allowed). Main objective is no long a game win, is just getting an uberzombie (or skellie, whatever). Same strategy all over a season, and with a lil´bit of luck, you got a terriffic team for the next season.

You will have to believe me in this point, we suffered this during a whole season, and it was hell. Even the undead coaches agreed that that rule had to left. Never messed again with it.

IMHO all a revived guy should do is saving 30k to his coach.

Manu

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 8:36 pm

Funny ... the MBBL2 has allowed the special raise dead rules for over a year on the Khemri, Undead, and Unholy Araby teams and I haven't noticed such tactics at all .... or a ton of folks rushing to play those teams.

Galak

Remco · Post by **Remco** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:43 pm

Galak, that's because the serious threats you put in the rules about removing teams that don't try their best to win the game!

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 6:46 am

manusate wrote:Main objective is no long a game win, is just getting an uberzombie (or skellie, whatever). Same strategy all over a season, and with a lil´bit of luck, you got a terriffic team for the next season.

I understand your point. However, I argue that currently deaths are not frequent enough to make this tactic too likely to succeed. More likely they'll hunt those überzombies in vain, lose all their games because they concentrated on hunting them, and end up sad and disappointed.

Naturally it's possible that the team can get lucky and get a few überzombies. However, I consider it a rather small possibility.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 8:00 am

I agree simply targetting players without recourse to the ball is not much of an option in PBEM seasons - its a long time! By the time you may have developed an uber team 2 or 3 seasons lasting 18 months will have gone.

However, it does allow teams to beef up their positions. One thing I am definitely against though... killed on-pitch spell casters should lose their spell casting abilities.... a zombie High Elf spell caster casting a MI every game and dishing out Magic Helmets to the Tomb Guardians is TOO much IMO (OK odds of getting a MH are 1 in 9 - but it happened in my game against Brian).

Dave

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 9:00 am

Ok, that should be added. If on-pitch spell-casters are allowed, they lose their abilities upon being raised.

manusate · Post by **manusate** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 12:34 pm

Mmm, I think that you are right. The sad experience I was talking about took place years ago, before the new fouling rules and in a time rerolls were widely used on injury rolls (sigurd´s).

I agree that hunting for uberzombies may not be a viable strategy under current rules, but I guess I wouldn´t be able to resist the lure of a +1st Black Orc even if the odds are playing against me... Don´t know.

Well, I agree on that point. But I still don´t like the idea of improving the zombies (skeletons cannot be raised under current rules). As I said before, all a revive should do is saving 30k to an undead coach. No more.

Manu

Acerak · Post by **Acerak** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 3:17 pm

Here's an idea from the vault:

Raise any player and remove the appropriate stats (-2 MA and -1 AG for a Zombie, -1 MA and -1 AG for a Skeleton). Let the player keep his skills, SPPs, etc. Give him the Regenerate characteristic and a new trait: Rotting.

Rotting: The player was hastily constructed and is falling apart. After every game, make an Ageing roll for this player with a -2 modifier. Apply any results immediately.

This gives you some very cool players with very limited shelf lives. Might be worth a look in your league if you're into that sort of thing.

Cheers!

-Chet

Fenryll · Post by **Fenryll** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 3:41 pm

What a real good idea Acerak !!!!

But in this case, is the player will keep all these skills