Cool One-Off Halfling sculpt on BB Tactics

[Piousman]

I think this may end up being Thudd! rather than Thrud, or something like that.

- Piousman

[txapo]

but i find the whole issue very funny: thrudd is a "inspiration" and a satire of Conan, so if someone inspires on him and creates Coñan???

[GalakStarscraper]

but i find the whole issue very funny: thrudd is a "inspiration" and a satire of Conan, so if someone inspires on him and creates Coñan???

I see what you are getting at ... my concern would be that Andy from Heresy pays to create figures that look like this and so by creating a Thrudd! figure ... there is an element that attacks two folks that have been very helpful to the BB Community. Andy at Heresy has created some great figures over the years for us players and Carl has been very supportive of our events.

I think what is being missed by you txapo is that this figure concept is currently in the hands of two of the "good guys" for BB ... so it what makes it interesting.

So currently Impact! stocks everything we can get from Willy. For me to stock this figure if the figure does not have Carl's approval ... I'd need to talk to Carl first and see if there was a % I could pay him from Impact! profit from what we buy from Willy for in order for us to carry it. I've talked to Carl in the past ... he's a good guy and a supporter of the BB community. I'd like to keep it that way.

I mean ... you never know how someone could react to something like this. Carl is a nice guy ... but he may just take is ball and go home and refuse to support Thrudball anymore if this the community turns a blind eye to the use of his IP and that event does a lot of good charity work for a good cause.

I think you need to understand that this is not so much an issue of incorrect IP use as it is the 2 guys who are most effected by the use of the IP.

Hope I phrased that as diplomatically as possible as Impact! greatly enjoys our relationship with Willy ... so no attack meant at all here ... I have a feeling that a lot of this knowledge was not known and am trying to present it.

Tom

[willy]

Hi all

I'll try to explain , every time I think to create a miniature attempt to find out where the name is born .

"Thurd" Thor's daughter ( Erik Menneskesøn de Lars-Henrik Olsen ) Danish mythology .
Image "barbarian" , is very common , minotaur , werewolf etc ... I think no owner to "cyclops" , if I sculpt "cyclops" I not need permission marvel .

Robert E. Howard is the creator of Conan , Robert E. Howard is the creator of "barbarian" , all others he unconsciously imitate.

But I think Galak and other users have really , I will try to contact Carls and agree .

[Ptchnk]

The issue is not that you're doing a"Thudd" inspired by Thrud but that yours is very similar to Carl's Thrud (same proportions, same helmet and face, ect...). Your mini is great, no doubt on that. But it would be sad to get into troubles just because of one unique miniature when we know all the great work you're doing for the community by bringing along all those terrific new miniatures

[Vain]

It isn't so much as the name as the incredible similarities between the models for me. That is an obvious attempt to gain sales from customers recognising an existing brand.

I love the mini and I really want to buy one. The mini is awesome, but unless I could be sure it was on the level I would have to abstain from buying, and maybe make some choices about the company as a whole.

Sure Barbarians are open for all but having someone who looks so close to a known character ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... rudnew.png ) with a name that is so close as well is a little on the nose.


Ok, in summary: Get the ok from Carl and cast this mini up. I want to throw money at you!

[Lecter1972]

If no agreement can be made with Carl then Willy should have Pedro sculpt the head with a new helmet

There are plenty of viking/barbarian helmets without horns that would not infringe on Carls IP

http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/20 ... l.jpg.jpeg
http://images.wikia.com/mafiawars/images/b/ba/39363.jpg
http://ii-prod-rw.marketlive.com/Design ... 867040.jpg
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9 ... Vlaxy0AvtA
http://www.jelldragon.com/images2/ph_co ... helmet.jpg

[Giraffe]

I only saw this mini last night when someone showed me it on their phone...

My first thought was "Wow, Heresy have created another Thrud Miniature...but why do one SO similar to their standing thrud model..."

(By this I mean their 60mm Metal Miniature, more than the larger plastic one, but both are VERY similar...)

Then I saw all of this on TFF...and felt another Grey hair appear...(for those who don't know, I'm the guy behind Thrudball, hence I have many! )


I'm pretty sure Heresy have sole rights to make Thrud Mini's from Carl Critchlow

Carl is Thrud's creator (from back in his college days before he joined GW) and hence IP Owner...

Not that this is widely known, I'm led to believe even GW didn't know Carl owned Thrud's IP when they made the Bloodbowl Thrud model

Here's a pic of the Standing Thrud and the larger Plastic Thrud models for comparison...

http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx58 ... ies101.jpg
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx58 ... ollage.jpg

Whoever sculpted it has unfortunately / unwittingly opened a potential can of IP worms here ...

And I know from painful experience with GW (hence why Thrudbowl is now Thrudball) that if IP is NOT challenged then you lose your IP rights...

So Carl would HAVE to make an IP challenge whether he wanted to or not, or else lose his Ip rights...

I would therefore urge whoever sculpted it to withdraw it ....

...or risk the "Curse of Thrud"

[Ptchnk]

hence why Thrudbowl is now Thrudball

WOW GW has annoyed you because of "bowl" in Thrudbowl?!!! Would they look after the organizers of the SuperBOWL after that!

[txapo]

Chainshaw skelly
Griff (better than any of the GW)

A tournament miniature (when the organizers present it).

check willy's foro for this!!! hes put the greens up today!!!

If I where you and would be going to Amsterdam I would email him asking to put me on reserve specially for the Skaven as it will be limited amount as is a tournament miniature!

me thank godess will be getting it at the Txipiroi for the inscription!

[spubbbba]

Well it seems to be a very hazy area for IP infringement. Looking at the existing Thrudd models there is nothing unique about them at all, it’s a generic, heavily muscled barbarian with a small head, loincloth, big axe and horned helmet. So something we’ve all seen many times before in fantasy art, most notably Conan.

Unless the model is actually cast from an existing Thrud model or claims to be of Thrud then I don’t think a lawsuit with stand a ghost of a chance. Of course defending such a lawsuit is very expensive hence why GW has got away with their shenanigans for so long.

[Chris]

Can Carl a comic artist and storyteller guy fight a lawsuit? No.

Is this a copy of Thrud? Yes.

Is Thrud significantly different? I challenge you to find some pictures of a thrud like barbarian (that was not also penned by Carl) who is not thrud. He has the barbarian look certainly but the proportions are very distinct giving a unique look that 100's of thousands of people would recognise.

And finally - what everyone else says. Carl does alright by fans, it is not excessive to expect the same back in return. Just ask the guy does he mind and if you plan to sell it and he asks for royalties, give them to him. Be honest - if you had never heard of Thrud would you have designed the same model?

[Slinky]

Unless the model is actually cast from an existing Thrud model or claims to be of Thrud then I don’t think a lawsuit with stand a ghost of a chance. Of course defending such a lawsuit is very expensive hence why GW has got away with their shenanigans for so long.

Spubbbba, you do realize that the issue here is bigger than just whether Carl can win a lawsuit right. Willy makes minis to make money. He is respected in the community. If he makes this figure without Carl's approval, there will be several people who will then think twice about buying his figures.

So Willy could just do this and win against Carl but then lose much more than he gains just by the lack in standing in the community view. Is that worth it? Its almost a year later and there are still many people on TFF who treat Gaspez like the plague because they wronged someone who was seen as a good guy and refused to back down from the wrong. Does Willy who is highly respected really want to go down the route of winning this battle in principal just to have folks start thinking of him as Gaspez Jr. To me that is just not worth it.

[txapo]

At the spanish forum Willy has said that until he gets Carl's OK the miniature stays in the freezer waiting.

Please take in acount that the law for IP protection is completely other in UK and Spain (you don't have to claim and sue constantly to others in order to not loose it, IP property remains of the creator weather he is copied and he chooses when is worth him to fight agianst someone who damages his economichal interest),...

[Slinky]

Please take in acount that the law for IP protection is completely other in UK and Spain

And I think you and Willy need to realize that there are a lot of people that really could care less about this line of argument.

Chris summed this up pretty well in his post. This is not about whether it is legal or not. Anyone with a single shred of business morality knows this is WRONG. Without Carl's Thrud art this figure would never look like this.

Willy if he produces this figure without Carl's approval is stabbing a good person who supports this community in the back REGARDLESS of the law.

If Willy does not care about what buyers of his goods think about his company, yes he should just pay attention to the law and ignore the right thing to do. And after running BloodBowlForo through Google Translate, statements Willy is making about Carl like:

I'll see if I can do with the mail the artist ... although I'm sure he did not do the same with the creator of Conan.

(should be noted that the creator of Conan was DEAD when Thrud was created.

I think that if you work at GW knows what he is "drinking" of the ideas of others.

Really? After being told that the UK crowd considers Carl one of the good guys, you publically accuse him of stealing with your comment about "drinking" the ideas of others. Willy for the love of all that is good and holy, you are producing figures for Zug, Eldril, and Griff which we all accept as fine since GW is seen as some flavour of evil but your house is very much made of glass here. Carl never worked for GW. His comic was licensed by them. He is not part of the GW evil empire and you are not scoring points with your current argument that "Carl stole Thrud from Conan so I can steal him and its fine".

If all you do is focus on what is purely legal, you are going to miss that many folks that play this game are going to care more about what is right. Yes there will always be players that will buy your stuff, but when an issue like this comes up could you please not drag a good man through the mud to try to make yourself look better.

I would have had so much more respect for you over the last 24 hours if instead I had seen this post:
"I was not aware there could be an issue with Thrud. My apologies, I will contact Carl and see what I can find out and until then I'll put this figure on hold".

But that is not what you did. Instead you went hard on the attack against a good man for a product that has won a major literary award in the UK and felt the need to drag him through the mud to defend your actions. I hope you can look at the sentence above and realize that this business is not just about making minis that are awesome but its also about the community and I think I would have placed an order with you today just to thank you if I can seen you take the adult, respectful and mature stance on this issue as I quoted above.

I'm glad you put the mini on hold, that was the right thing to do for now. I wish you didn't feel the need to go after Carl before doing it.