Talk Fantasy Football

I've reached one of those (overall) happy way stations in life: Age, fuzzy-ing eyesight, the need to conserve what little "economy" I have, coupled with plenty of "lead under the bed", and soon sharing my life with a woman who approves of my hobby while deserving the best of my time, has led me to solidify certain aspects of my game.... In this case, the Undead Project of carrying three teams (Necros, Undead and Khemri) in one compact case. I will report on miniature choices and preferences with my reasoning.... If this thread becomes a resource for present and future coaches, all the better.... (All pics belong to their respective owners/sites)

The Case: Many great and potentially better cases exist, no doubt. Early on I purchased an Ultra-Pro miniatures bag. I like it's size (approximately 10"x11.5"x5.5") and I remember the price being about $20 USD when I bought it....
I've redesigned the interior to three levels, using hobby craft foam sheets and cloth.... This is the one facet I may revisit as I am not a hundred percent happy with the current arrangement.... I do, however, give myself a C+ for cleverness, being able to carry 36 miniatures and ALL the accessories/rulebooks/papers/cloth pitch necessary to play the game....

Miniature selection:

I think I have spent Midas' sum on figures over my 35 years of gaming.... Having been an obsessive tinkerer in trying to put together the best undead teams (given my mediocre talents with paint and brush) has led me to the following assumpted presumptions and determinations:

1. Size (scale matching) is all important! I didn't come to this lightly, spending ridiculous amounts of time, money and energy on trying to get a team to look like it flows on the pitch! The overall miniatures industry doesn't help in not explicitly referencing size and in comparison to a standardized "man figure"... witness the number of posts asking about size.... To their credit, some companies are coming around... though I'm sympathetic to the time and cost of providing information in an industry that survives on thin margins (greedy w'nkers excepted).... Most vexing, for the triple undead threat, is finding werewolves that look St3, Mummies that look St5 (the biggest problem, only recently solved), and ghouls that don't look St2.... A good selection of colors (I think it is one of my better "talents") will blend even disparate company minis together if they are all comparable to the size they should represent! While I won't/don't support gw past the assassination attempt that resulted in TBB becoming TFF, their miniatures and scale did play a large portion in size determination in the end....

2. One-piece Preference: This may not even bother some people in the least, and I admit that there are breathtaking, multi-piece minis out there! The Heresy ghouls, though a bit small, come to mind as drool-inducing sculpts that are a royal pain in the arse to assemble and keep assembled.... Whether it is pinning, having to use greenstuff, or the occasional drop from the table/handling on the field, one piece construction doesn't suffer these maladies.... In the end I will have only TWO multi-piece figures in the kit....

3. Racial matchups: Maybe just a preference, but I like my positionals to look like they are related to each other.... A contradictory blessing in the undead is in their "linemen"... skeletons and zombies, with a little discretion, can be "fudged" together.... The challenge of finding just the right ghouls wasn't resolved (fully) until someone remembered a sculpter having made more similar figs in a non-fantasy-football set....

4. Brush on Primer! I am convinced that this is the secret to getting the most out of my painting talents.... The natural variations derived from the simple task of brushing on the primer makes the mini look more natural and least mono when finished....

On to the minis!

Zombies
I will nod my head in appreciation to one gw product: Rotting Flesh paint! I never could do spit for zombie flesh until I got this color on my brush.... Using white primer, covering the mini in Reaper Troll Flesh, dry-brushed with Reaper Gnoll Flesh and lightly dry-brushed with gw Rotting Flesh is now my preference for zombifying any miniature! The gw football zombies SUCK! Nevertheless, their Rotters are another kettle of (decomposing) flesh....

Using the right amount of bloody paint talent, the fatty's nurgling can be made to look like his guts are falling out....
Other citadel models that have lended well to the undead cause are the 1980's zombie with the perched vulture and eye hanging out (used as the newly raised zombie when an opponent dies) a beastman (Roadkill) and an old Greaser Geargrinder (for an Orc zombie).... The last two zombie figures are from the Incursion game: BomberZombies! They are an excellent scale match with the bald zed (and the helmeted zed) segueing well with the fat and skinny zombified rotters....


Skeletons
Old citadel miniatures from the 80's had a lot of character! My first three skellies are weapon snips of Cursed Company minis, one each Orc, Saurus and Skaven....

One citadel skeleton carrying his head aloft above his shoulders (not pictured) and two skeletons from the Warmachine line (the two on the right)....


Wights
Another pair of Blood Bowl sculpts that seemed to go so wrong.... I played around for years with the defining definition of a "wight"... was it more ethereal and ghostly, or was it a manevolent being with a skeletal visage...? I even used a pair of Reaper gargoyles for awhile.... The answer finally came after brainstorming about a Technomancer who would "build the perfect zombie".... Privateer Press (Warmachine/Hordes) has an awesome set of skeletal-headed bipedal humanoids with power gauntlets.... This would be the Technomancer's experiment in making zombies better at blocking.... Expensive to the point of only being able to afford two... or maybe the experiment could only yield a pair of specimens...(?)


Werewolves
Oof! Don't get me started on size and the only reason for playing Necros, imho! Unfortunately the bestest figures are either too honkin' big or, on occasion, too small.... In the end it was scale of the team that shelved all the previous experiments and brought me back to two old school, citadel, BB sculpts: Wilhelm Chaney and Slarga Foulstrike of the 2nd Edition Chaos All-Stars! Not only does it give me good scale and "proper" strength 3, but a use for the defunct Slarga figure....


Ghouls
A true gw/citadel disaster!!!!! So bad are these figs they rival even the worst gw bb (and possibly ever) makings of Nobla Blackwart/Bomber Dribblesnot! Being as I needed a total of four (Undead team) it was nearly a wash.... For awhile I was satisfied with the hyena based ghouls from Warlords of Aegyptus... while coveting the quality of the Heresy Deathball ghoul.... Then someone on the board told me that the same sculptor (Andy Foster) made three other ghouls in the same vein and the heavens rained sweet dew upon the cemetery grounds.... I just recently finished up the quad and they are awaiting a coat of lacquer! I can't find pics of the others so will have to wait till I photograph mine....


Golems
I've used everything from Reaper Clay Golem and its "Mutant" cousin (same sculpt with a mohawk) to a pair of Mage Knight metal "zombies" that are too big for that purpose, but excellent size for a Golem.... What brought me back to a traditional, Boris Karloff, look was the issuance (and procurement) of the German "B7 Golem".... It matches extremely well with either Frank-n-stein or the fifth edition Golem from gw.... With one golem being "odd man out", it was a tough choice... still, the B7 Golem is a masterful work of extraordinary miniature making art!!! Not only is it compatible with the originals, the pieces (arms) fit together perfectly without the need for greenstuff/pinning... indeed, it is such a tight and clean fit that I had forgotten it was a 3 piece mini.... I will eventually field the B7 and 5th Edition, painting Frankie up as a coach! Maybe switch them in and out as I feel different....



Mummies
Bah!, I got so frustrated with looking for a Strength 5 mummy that I finally had given up and painted a pair of gw wimp mummies to use.... Then, on this board, one of our members offered up a pair of Willy mummies on the cheap and I just happened to be in France at the time, so the postage was cheap also! Now, the reputation of Willys is that their figs are large-ish (Willy says they're 30mm) and I opened the package with hopeful trepidation.... Whether the mummies were made strength 3 and just "suffered" from 30mm expansion... or they were meant to be just right... but they are just a tad beefier and taller than the gw/b7 golems!!!!! And I like their looks, details and general dynamics.... I did have to put a little greenstuff in the one fig with a two piece arm... but it is something easily lived with....

Painted by "Adam"

Tomb Guardians
I can't argue with the Khemri mummies of gw.... Bought ages ago, mated with Ramtut, and added to by a fourth cousin available on Impact Miniatures site, the fab four are fine....


Ra-ra-ras
Impact miniatures has a very serviceable Vihktora thrower that I had a pair of....

and I recently came across a pair of HellDorado Corvi to join them as the blitzers....


Once painted that will be 31 player figs (plus a few racial zombies) and a handful of support personnel that may expand later.... Star players will require a separate billet.... Already I have old gw acquisitions for Hack-n-Slash and one of the 2nd edition ogres to use for Morg-n-Thorg... as well as an original Count Drakenborg I can pull from Vampire team duty.... Ramtut can fill in from the Khemri roster if and when I need him.... I have a Sutekh from Impact Miniatures

and other candidates in the bits & minis collection for the other star players as time and effort catch up!

All comments are welcome... RAISE THE DEAD!

Interesting miniature choices and discussion! For a brief but wonderful moment there, I thought you'd finally got a camera - after years of threatening to do so - but alas, I guess that pleasure still awaits us

I feel your pain with mini selection. I personally quite like to work in plastics, but I'm going down the mixed use teams route more and more and picking up a few metals to complement my bitz box as I go. Eventually my Undead and Necro teams will form part of a 32 mini set with Nurgle, when I come to finish it . The biggest question for me is what I'm going to about the wolves.

Basically, I've chosen the LOTR morgul stalkers for use as wights as I wanted the team to all look like dead humanoids risen at the same time... I don't really feel that Skeletons and Zombies really match up well. Other than the Stalker wights, I'm using a pair of GW Ogre Bull undead ogres (as mummies), GW Crypt Ghouls, and eight zombies made from a mix of Warlord Games Celtic Warrior legs, Mantic Zombies torsos, heads and arms and a few Maxmini.eu Zombie heads. The partly complete FG also use maxmini heads, but on the torso and arms of GW Orc Nobz. It gives the group a certain coherence I like... But only moves me further from solving my wolf conundrum.

Should have a plog up at some stage - the last three undead minis are due to arrive within the next few weeks, with the rest of my minis hopefully turning up (from storage) before Christmas. Will pop a pic in here once I get the plog up

Fantastic thread.

Wights are the biggest pain for me, I dislike GW surfing boys, and ghosts/nazguls/technoundeads don't look as a wight is for me. Willy's are too big for my taste...

Currently using Count Luthor and a warhammer cousin for fluff reasons (they are undead after all). Considered the Warmachine skellies you have, maybe too small for undead knights...

Any solid suggestion?

ulvardar wrote:Fantastic thread.

Wights are the biggest pain for me, I dislike GW surfing boys, and ghosts/nazguls/technoundeads don't look as a wight is for me. Willy's are too big for my taste...

Considered the Warmachine skellies you have, maybe too small for undead knights...

Any solid suggestion?

Any chance of refining, i.e., what you DO consider a wight to look like? Maybe we can figure a figure for you....

Have you tried the Withershadow Combine minis? I have the package ready to go (someone thought they wanted them, then changed mind). You could use the book guy as a coach.

Shteve0 wrote:Interesting miniature choices and discussion! For a brief but wonderful moment there, I thought you'd finally got a camera - after years of threatening to do so - but alas, I guess that pleasure still awaits us

Actually it is much more a matter of being lazy.... I just noticed that my computer can take pics from my webcam! I will play with it this weekend and maybe embellish this thread with my humble offerings....

Shteve0 wrote:I feel your pain with mini selection. I personally quite like to work in plastics, but I'm going down the mixed use teams route more and more and picking up a few metals to complement my bitz box as I go.

Some of your pain should be ameliorated by the parts approach.... I am in awe of your being able to kitbash (even though the approach is not for me)....

Shteve0 wrote:The biggest question for me is what I'm going to about the wolves.

I've a lot of extras to pass on if you come up with an answer! I wouldn't mind, at all, this being a discussion of mini choices, etc., so let me know what you want in a doggie and we'll find one somewhere....

Shteve0 wrote:Basically, I've chosen the LOTR morgul stalkers for use as wights as I wanted the team to all look like dead humanoids risen at the same time...

Not bad... I went with flowing cloak models for a long time, but finally got away from them for a more homogenous raised-from-the-grave body-showing thematic.... I used several Reaper minis along the way, such as:

Shteve0 wrote:I don't really feel that Skeletons and Zombies really match up well.

I assume you mean my choices.... I can easily see, from a standpoint of homogeneity, that your point is easily valid.... The fluff in my head (hey!, no laughing!!!) considers zeds and skellies as picked up and raised from whatever/wherever you had available along the way.... They are not important enough to be anything but "cobbled together".... So, while I looked for subtle segues, having everyone from the same line was not important.... We'll see, later in the thread as I photo the minis, if my paint jobs helped out....

Shteve0 wrote:Other than the Stalker wights, I'm using a pair of GW Ogre Bull undead ogres (as mummies), GW Crypt Ghouls, and eight zombies made from a mix of Warlord Games Celtic Warrior legs, Mantic Zombies torsos, heads and arms and a few Maxmini.eu Zombie heads. The partly complete FG also use maxmini heads, but on the torso and arms of GW Orc Nobz. It gives the group a certain coherence I like...

Feel free to show them here, or to link to your site/thread.... For me, the Willy mummies turned out to be a tremendous find.... Remember that I am shading heavily to the citadel 2nd edition standard for Strength 3 characters... so those mummies really do look good for Strength 5.... The bull ogres are an interesting choice.... For a long time I went with these guys (still in the storage box) from Reaper:

Shteve0 wrote:But only moves me further from solving my wolf conundrum.

I flogged the Westwind Productions, "Secrets of the Reich" werewolves as the ultimates, before giving in to the scale problem.... They are still awesome sculpts and not really that big for St 3....

It is a damn shame willies models are so big

Where incidentally did you get that shambling frank n stein from? Great model!

Chris wrote:Where incidentally did you get that shambling frank n stein from? Great model!

(I'm hoping and praying I do it justice when I get around to painting it!)

That is the German Blood Bowl B7 Tournament (2011) giveaway... but, as I wasn't there, you can do the same as I and ask if any are left for sale! It is one of THE MOST AWESOMEST Blood Bowl minis ever produced, imho!

Here is the link to the thread: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=34379&hilit=funk+n+stein

I really like Reaper's Barrow Warden for a wight. Requires a weapon snip (pretty simple) and it's on a raised decorative base. I had to trim the stone base shorter to fit on the top of a 28mm base then used greenstuff to smooth it out like the Wight was on a bit of a hill. Once the base was painted and static grass was added, can't even really notice the elevation difference. It's a bit of work, but for me far worth it as I wasn't sold on any other Wights.

RogueThirteen wrote:I really like Reaper's Barrow Warden for a wight.

I certainly think you could make a whole undead team, or three, from Reaper's awesome line of minis.... Beware of some offerings: The Lupine line of werewolves is spectacular, as are the zombie werewolves... alas, all are too big for BB use....

For a beefier ghoul, you might like the Reaper Ghasts:


I'm implementing a bag redesign where I will have room for 40 minis on the first and second level (previous design could only house 36 minis total) and found an ultra-soft, organic, pillow foam that is perfect and miniature/paint friendly!

Digger Goreman wrote: I flogged the Westwind Productions, "Secrets of the Reich" werewolves as the ultimates, before giving in to the scale problem.... They are still awesome sculpts and not really that big for St 3....

These are the wolves I settled with as well. I am still using the Willy wolves when they get S4 or when I need Will Chaney. I find the Westwind ones are a great for S3 scale compared to the other Willy minis.

- Piousman

Interestingly enough went with the albion wolf for normal and heresy for wilhelm/str 4

Have an old ralpath troll and teh evil santa from heresy with a little modding for golems, GW plastic zombies not happy with them but haven't foound anything i like more and same with teh wights, bought the willy wights but they tower over everything else in the team - lovely models and would recommend them to anyone with a larger team but in the team i have just dont work as wights

All these reasons are why I bounced back to a second edition (more or less) standard.... If you don't like gw zombies (very understandable... the sculpt would gag a maggot in s*it), then "zombify" other models.... 2nd edition humans might be just fine... could even chip them up a bit if you are daring.... Again, I think the gw rotters make a great front three....

Digger Goreman wrote:

Shteve0 wrote:I don't really feel that Skeletons and Zombies really match up well.

I assume you mean my choices....

No no no, not at all - I actually meant generally. I fret about weird things, and one of those things is visual and thematic comsistency. For example, to me, skeletons and zombies don't belong on the same team. I know it's irrational, but I'm not having it... so my flesh golems are big ST4 zombies, my wights are zombie knights, my mummies are undead ogres, and I have no idea what my wolves will be.

I agree, finding good Zombies is possibly the hardest part about Undead teams. I ended up going with one of Impact!'s Chaotic Marauders, as it is quite a bargain and really fits the part. Here's some simply painted up to look like zombies, though I gave one some spilling greenstuff guts just to hammer home the point:




As for werewolves, yea everything seems too darn big for Necro wolves. I actually ended up using a HorrorClix prepainted plastic figure (She-Wolf / Lupina). The paint job can easily be drastically improved with some touch-up work, and simply shading/highlighting even makes it look stellar. The sculpt is actually quite impressive and looks like a fast Str3 to me with some prominent claws. Best part, though? You can grab 'em for $0.49 each!


[Image from Troll & Toad, though doesn't really do the fig justice]

I had actually looked at the marauders for zombies and didn't bite for lack of variety of pose... having been bitten by the individual sculpt bug long ago....

Clix are great temps, imo.... I use 6 nosferatus and 11 skeletal quarterbacks (whatever the proper name is) for a vampire team until I get mine painted (backburner, but not as far away as it used to be)....

Finished the redesign of my bag trays today.... I'm mostly satisfied: Slots for 40 average sized minis on the bottom two levels.... The top level contains two card compartments (holds all inducement cards and star player cards for Undead teams), a slot for my timer, a slot for dice, and 12 oversized mini spaces... their contents may vary according to circumstance: another team; star players, support equipment/minis.... I'll fire up the camera this weekend and see what I can post for everyone's pleasure....

Digger Goreman wrote: Clix are great temps, imo.... I use 6 nosferatus and 11 skeletal quarterbacks (whatever the proper name is) for a vampire team until I get mine painted (backburner, but not as far away as it used to be)....

Agreed, I've used them for all sorts of various proxies. But I've been so impressed with the She-Wolf model (compared to alternatives) ended up keeping them in the final team.

Clix and other pre-painted models can also work great for Star Players, since I'm not too keen on buying and painting separate minis for all the various stars I'd like to have access to but may never actually use.