the fabled sixteen sided die

'Ed Basha' · Post by **'Ed Basha'** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:23 am

does anyone have an image or the dimensions of the 16 sided die I heard about. If I can get the stats or a good image of it, I want to cast s run of them in lead, and make them available to all and sundry.

ZanzerTem · Post by **ZanzerTem** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 5:23 am

http://www.dozensofgames.com/16sideddice.html

Indigo · Post by **Indigo** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:56 am

IIRC the guy who makes these has patented them so casting up your own version would be illegal...

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:12 pm

Indigo wrote:IIRC the guy who makes these has patented them so casting up your own version would be illegal...

How can you patent a geometric shape? That's like saying you could patent a D6 (ie a cube shaped object) ... I'm pretty sure there is no way to defend this.

Galak

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:17 pm

Maybe he patented the series 1-16?

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:27 pm

How can you patent a geometric shape? That's like saying you could patent a D6 (ie a cube shaped object) ... I'm pretty sure there is no way to defend this.

You should know by now that in the US everything is possible...like going to McDonalds and gettings lots of money because the coffee was too hot!

Here in Europe you can't patent a die for sure, because a patent requires a technical aspect! You would have to make a design pattern or so which is of course possible for something new. No technical aspect required, it just has to be new. Look up the respective databases, and you might dig up GWs special block dice etc...GW has a lot of 'things' protected somehow, names, logos, special dice etc.

However, in the US these dice are sometimes only a part of what is called "a method of creating random numbers between X and Y", thus the method and the best mode of carrying out said method (for example a die) may be protected in form of a patent.

A little research and you get an idea why laywers are so well paid. believe me, much is possible on this field, you just have to know hot to sell your idea.

Not that I know much about the US patent law in paticular, but it contains some nasty surprises for the unskilled eye.

Sputnik

Anthony_TBBF · Post by **Anthony_TBBF** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:32 pm

Is it possible to make a 16 sider that is a different shape? Sorry if that is a stupid question, I'm a math idiot

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:46 pm

Anthony_TBBF wrote:Is it possible to make a 16 sider that is a different shape? Sorry if that is a stupid question, I'm a math idiot

IF you could .. not sure ... it would require:

Create a 7 sided where each of the angles are the same. Put one on top and one on the bottom and then put one of these same shapes off a each side of the top and bottom.

Galak

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:52 pm

Ha, just had a look in my personal X-files.

this is from a published US Patent dated from 2000:

"I claim:

a die for generating a randomly occurring number between 1 and X comprising:

a central body which has a lateral cross section which is an x sided polygon having at least 5 sides of equal length when cut perpendicularly anywhere along a longitudinal axis;

said die being generally torpedo shaped when viewed from a lateral side, each lateral side acring between the central boda and the end portions wherein each side is arcuate so that the die will rock longitudinally after it comes to rest on an arcuate side."

Heavy stuff, he?

What does the die look like? try to find out yourself without a picture..

And this is the tricky part about the shape and eventual modifications. Whatever they EXACTLY claimed in their patent is VERY important and sometimes it is difficult to get around a patent by merely altering this or that part. And they won't go and say: D16....

Sputnik

Indigo · Post by **Indigo** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:58 pm

I remember Neo looking into it for the NAF and the issue was because the die was a patented method for generating a random number for 1 to 16 - so attempting copy something that does that job will be in breach of the patent.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:13 pm

Indigo wrote:I remember Neo looking into it for the NAF and the issue was because the die was a patented method for generating a random number for 1 to 16 - so attempting copy something that does that job will be in breach of the patent.

Even if the design is different?

Hmmm ... that doesn't seem right to be honest.

Galak

Indigo · Post by **Indigo** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:15 pm

NOt sure about the design - I reckon as long as it was sufficiently different and not merely an extension based on that d16 you'd be OK.

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:18 pm

The one currently out is shaped like an 8 sider,perhaps shaping another one like a 12 sider.

Sputnik · Post by **Sputnik** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:22 pm

Even if the design is different?

Hmmm ... that doesn't seem right to be honest.

again, it depends on what is EXACTLY claimed. Every die falling under the specific definition as given in my example would infringe the patent, every other die not. As you may also take from my example, usually not a die is claimed in form of a picture and it is said: 'this is what we want to have protected' but the definition may be a very complicated geometrical one wherein more than one embodiment is possible. Just to make it longer or green instead of yellow would not be sufficient.

This is however only true for patents. For a design patternthat would be different, of course. Or copy rights, for example. It really depends upon the form of protection.

And a US patent is only valid for the US and we don't have to care abut that anywhere else. Which means in return that since you can't patent a die here in Europe you can't infringe a patent as well

But keep in mind: A specific block dice may be protected in some form here in Europe (see GW) although a six sided die is well known in the field of board games. It just depends on the form of protection you have...

Sputnik

Dark Lord (retired) · Post by **Dark Lord (retired)** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:59 pm

Could you please show some proof that this guy did patent this?

And that the patent was approved?

Another European expert on the USA.

Not only that but if you don't sell the dice you don't infringe on any patents...real or imagined.