A question concerning Stand Firm

[Xynok]

Ahh, sorry Ian, I wasn't quite following your logic earlier. This is indeed the exact same situtation. Given that there are open spaces next to a player with SS, what happens when a player is pushed into him?

Basically, what is the technical definition of a Push Back? Anything that pushes a player back? Given this, do the skills SF and SS only work when the player is Blocked, or when they are Pushed Back period?

Consider the first 2 lines of the description of SS:

A player with this skill is an expert at stepping neatly out of the way of an attacker. To represent this ability, his coach may choose which
square the player is moved to when he is pushed back, rather than
the opposing coach.

1) Define "attacker?" Does this not indicate a Block thrown at the player? A player being pushed into another player is certainly not in the category of being attacked is it?

2) Unlike in the description for SF, pushed back is not referred to as 'Push Back' result; it simply says when he is pushed back. The only thing that indicates pushed back from WHAT is the term "attacker."

These 2 skills need errata badly, because they are already very popular and powerful. Simply, if the skills are all inclusive in referring to push back, they need to add the line "pushed back for ANY reason." Likewise, if they can only be used when the player is Blocked, they need to add the lines "Note push backs in this case ONLY apply to Blocks directly targetting the player. Push backs from other sources are resolved as normal."

[DoubleSkulls]

Well at least we agree that the rules need clarification!

I think you are over analysing each word in the skill - and I know I do this myself on occassion - but the intent appears to be that these skills can be used regardless of the source of the push back. The language used is designed so that an 11 year old can understand them - so they lack the depth that adults sometimes require to clarify the ambiguities.

[Kri]

I would say that you could use both on "secondary" push backs. Would that mean that you could choose to push into a player with SF rather than one without?

You can always choose not to use a skill (not frenzy) and SF wouldn´t work on prone players.

[DoubleSkulls]

Well you could choose to push an opponent into a player with SF and then that player can decide whether or not to be pushed. Its not going to happen that often and seems a fair enough play.

[DaImp]

I would definately rule that a stand firm player can not be forced to move back under any normal (ie: no spells and weird stuff - technical term for I can't think of anything at the moment!) circumstances. Logically it would seem to makes sense to me that a player who can avoid an intentional push back (block) can avoid an unintentional push back (secondary push back).

um....

actually I don't think I am making too much sense here so I will just leave it at that.

[Munkey]

I would say that a player with Stand Firm cannot be pushed back by anything, that seems to be the intent of the skill.

Think of him as an immovable object (ok until we come up with an unstoppable force skill )

I think DaImp has it right when he says that a player who can resist a deliberate pushback from an opponent should be able to avoid a push from someone moved into him.

Of course this does give rise to ambiguities; does the player have to be pushed into someone without stand firm, and if he doesn't what happens to him - is he squashed between the two players.

I realise it would probably be easier to ignore the push but the mental image of a player being pancaked is amusing