Inaccurate Pass vs. Bouncing Ball

dakkakhan · Post by **dakkakhan** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:21 pm

Someone told me there is another thread, but I can't find it. If a pass scatters, is not caught and then bounces off the ground and then is caught by a player from the throwing team is that a turnover?

1. I know if it scatters or is not caught and scatters around to occupied squares, etc. it is like a tipped ball and has not hit the ground yet, each player it goes to has a chance to catch it, i.e. at this point it is called an inaccurate pass.

2. Once it goes into an unoccupied square it is considered a bouncing ball, and no longer a pass, right? Any player the ball bounces to gets a chance to catch a bouncing ball, but it's still a turnover right?

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:27 pm

The pass failed its a turnover, as soon as it hits the ground thats it. Note that it going out of bounds and being thrown back in doesn't count as it hitting the ground.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:33 pm

Grumble, you're wrong dude. It can bounce several times, as long as it ends up being caught by a member of the moving team then it's not a turnover.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 12:50 pm

Oh i stand corrected then ;]
Never bother throwing it myself!

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 1:07 pm

DW is right. A pass is only a turnover if it is a fumble or represents a loss of possession.

Heiper · Post by **Heiper** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:09 pm

Hmm didn't think a fumble would do an automatic Turnover, i'll have an other look at the rules, as you are usually right. Just thought if the fumble ended in the hands of a player on your team it would not be a turnover.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:17 pm

Heiper wrote:Hmm didn't think a fumble would do an automatic Turnover, i'll have an other look at the rules, as you are usually right. Just thought if the fumble ended in the hands of a player on your team it would not be a turnover.

LRB p22.

Heiper · Post by **Heiper** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 2:25 pm

Yep there it is, thanks. I just wish they could get all those Turnovers in one place

Snew · Post by **Snew** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 3:39 pm

I just wanted to point out one thing. When rolling the scatter 3 times, it's the last roll where the ball ends up. If it scatters over one of your player's heads on the first or second roll they don't get a chance to catch it. The three rolls represent where the ball actually got thrown too. It doesn't represent bobbling the ball or even where the ball actually is till the last roll.

It's one of those things that we didn't figure out during the first 100 readings of the rules.

dakkakhan · Post by **dakkakhan** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:22 pm

That being said Snots, When the ball hits the ground it is no longer a scattering pass, but becomes a bouncing ball, hence the pass failed, no?

I agree that an inaccurate pass or an accurate one tht doesn't get caught by the player in the "target square" is not necessarily a turnover, but it should be once it hits the ground, then bounce once and whoever is there can catch a bouncing ball. If he's on the throwing team, their turn ends with him in possession. If it's the defensive team, thei turn starts with him holding the ball.

It makes more sense that way, but that never got in the way of a rule.

Thanks guys.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 10:32 pm

I disagree. I think the fact that it is not a turnover adds a great element of chance to the game that I love.

I've seen many a pro football play where the ball bounces around into the hands of a new player from the team and he takes off just as seemlessly as if he was supposed to get that ball the whole time.

Ian said it best a pass is only a turnover if one of two events occur:
1) You fumble
2) You lose possession of the ball when it comes to rest

Galak

dakkakhan · Post by **dakkakhan** » Tue Dec 10, 2002 11:05 pm

I don't think I've ever heard anyone make a bold statement like that. I played last night and out of 6 niggles, 4 missed the game. We all like Chance, it's why we play dice games, but damn if you can depend on it. I scoff at the guys (even you) that throw percentages out there for examples, because in any game I've played or watched some ratio has gone right out the window!

I can appreciate what you are saying, I don't think I agree, but perhaps I'm applying too much american football and not enough Rugby. Not too familiar with the game, but they don't stop simply because the ball is bouncing. Some actually drop the ball on purpose right? And have it bounce right back to themselves? Or was that some other game?

Why does an attempt to pick up the ball that scatters into the hands of someone else cause a turnover? It seems like a similar happenstance, yet a totally different result. Maybe this could be similar to a shuffle pass type thing, no?

I need real life examples of what is happening down there with the wee little minis so my brain can understand.

gold_penguin · Post by **gold_penguin** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:05 am

dakkakhan wrote:Some actually drop the ball on purpose right? And have it bounce right back to themselves? Or was that some other game?

I need real life examples of what is happening down there with the wee little minis so my brain can understand.

In Aussie Rules, you are only allowed to run a few meters before you do something with the ball; kick it, handball (essentially "punch" it out of your other hand), or bounce the ball (you basically throw it a few feet in front of yourself and then run on to it). Maybe that is what you are thinking.

I don't think you can always draw parallels between real sports and BB. Sure it is like American Football, but at the end of the day it is a bastardised set of rules, and then a board game to represent those rules. If it makes it any easier, then sure it bounces, but you just have to accept that in these rules it isn't a turnover.

Going off topic for a second, this topic has reminded me of something. Has anyone tried to recreate the "official" NAF rules that they had in 2nd Ed? You had 4 downs to make the length of the pitch or something like that.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 12:36 am

dakkakhan wrote:I scoff at the guys (even you) that throw percentages out there for examples, because in any game I've played or watched some ratio has gone right out the window!

Statistics simply help us understand what "should" occur. Chance governs the game, plain and simple. If I didn't enjoy chance, I'll play Chess.

As for this rule.... its a mechanic .. why is a failed pickup a turnover and not a failed catch ... I don't know. But its a mechanic I enjoy and agree with on both counts so I run with it.

Galak

Rozman · Post by **Rozman** » Wed Dec 11, 2002 3:58 am

I suspect that the "catching the ball" part of a passing play is a bit harder to end up as a TO is because this is the second part of a 2-part action.

No other action involves 2 separate die rolls that can lead to a TO; every other one has only 1 opportunity to end your turn.

Whether this is balanced by the opportunity to move the ball so far is another matter; there are still the interception possibilities, Pass Block etc. to encounter that incur risk while the ball is in the air.

This also leaves Pass as the only action you can fail that does not cause a TO, so I could really go either way on this.

I'd have to apply the NAF review rules here: insufficient evidence to overturn