What is happening with the rules review?

[GalakStarscraper]

I
Someone mentioned, earlier on this thread, how the new teams are all over-powered and broken. Could someone point me to a thread that has more information on what you guys think is wrong with them?

I offered to answer this privately several weeks back Milo. Oh well, I'll just post the summary here from the multiple discussion threads that have occurred on TBB along with what seems to currently be the favored fix:

CHAOS PACT:
Too much strength and agility on the same team.
Proposed Fix: Drop the Beastman slot to 0-2, remove Dark Elf access from the team, and limit the team to only one Big Guy

OLD WORLD:
Too much strength and agility on the same team.
Proposed Fix: Drop the Dwarf slot to 0-2, remove High Elf access from the team, and limit the team to only one Big Guy

LUSTRIAN:
Now this one is probably balanced, but to keep it line with the other 2:
Proposed Fix: Drop the Skink slot to 0-2 and limit the team to only one Big Guy

KHEMRI:
Starting with Mighty Blow, the Mummies getting the new version of Piling On turns the team into a complete casualty machine. Enough to get attention already in several leagues.
Proposed Fix: Replace Mighty Blow with Foul Appearance on the Mummies. Drop the Blitz-Ra AG to 2 and AV up to 8. (Proposed also was dropping the Thro-Ra AG to 2, but this has mixed support when combined with the other changes).

NECROMANTIC:
7 players on the team without Regeneration is just a nightmare for this team. Its also not very inline with the fluff. Add to this that the Werewolf is just nightmarishly different than the Werewolf from either version 1 or 2 and the team is just wrong. The expensive players die too easily and the team fluff weight is miserable.
Proposed fix: Drop the Ghoul and the Wight to 0-2 positions.
Change the Flesh Golem to: 4/4/2/9 Regen/Stand Firm 110k
Change the Werewolf to 0-2 allowed and 7/4/2/8 Break Tackle, Frenzy 120k

VAMPIRE:
OFAB has never worked as a method of balancing the Vampire team. This newest version is just another iteration of a formula that doesn't work and has been playtested to death to prove it in multiple formats.
Proposed Fix:
Change OFAB to read as follows:
A player with this characteristic must occasionally feed on the blood of the living. At the start of any action (other than going from stunned to prone), roll a d6. On a 2+ the player may carry out the action as normal. On a '1', however, the player is overcome with a desire for blood and must make a Feeding Action. A player taking a Feeding Action may never hold the ball. If they start a feeding action while holding the ball, they immediately drop it. If they enter a square with the ball, they will automatically fail to pick it up.
Feeding Action: The player may move a number of squares equal to their MA. If the player ends his action standing adjacent to a Thrall from his own team, immediately roll for unmodified injury on that Thrall (the injury to the Thrall will never result in a turnover). If the player does not end his movement next to a Thrall from his own team, then he runs into the Reserves box trying to find pretty maiden groupie to quench his thirst. Place him in the reserves box, this is a turnover.


That's it in a nutshell. All the above changes were already approved by either Chet and/or JKL for testing in the MBBL (and I know that most of them are being also testing by Chet and/or JKL in either own leagues). By next review we should have some great feedback on how they work.

So far all the testing in the MBBL has shown great support for all the above changes. The only one currently not being tested above is limiting the ally teams to 1 Big Guy; however several folks like Pariah from this board are making a great case from playing the teams that the multiple Big Guy access for these teams is a problem (he's already retired one team as they only had 8 players left on the team and only 6 able to play for their 3rd game), and already such carnage is generating a buzz that the BG access could be limited to 1 for the Season 3 testing.

If you have any follow-up questions, I'd be happy to assist either here or via PM.

Galak

[Thadrin]

CHAOS PACT:
Too much strength and agility on the same team.
Proposed Fix: Drop the Beastman slot to 0-2, remove Dark Elf access from the team, and limit the team to only one Big Guy

OLD WORLD:
Too much strength and agility on the same team.
Proposed Fix: Drop the Dwarf slot to 0-2, remove High Elf access from the team, and limit the team to only one Big Guy

Make these changes and you may as well forget the whole idea. I don't think these rules allow enough flexibility to make the teams worthwhile.
I think the idea of basing the mixed team rules around the old Dungeonbowl team rules is far superior to this.

KHEMRI:
Starting with Mighty Blow, the Mummies getting the new version of Piling On turns the team into a complete casualty machine. Enough to get attention already in several leagues.
Proposed Fix: Replace Mighty Blow with Foul Appearance on the Mummies. Drop the Blitz-Ra AG to 2 and AV up to 8. (Proposed also was dropping the Thro-Ra AG to 2, but this has mixed support when combined with the other changes).

Fine..but for the love of God get rid of the Magic Helmet fluff.

NECROMANTIC:
7 players on the team without Regeneration is just a nightmare for this team. Its also not very inline with the fluff. Add to this that the Werewolf is just nightmarishly different than the Werewolf from either version 1 or 2 and the team is just wrong. The expensive players die too easily and the team fluff weight is miserable.
Proposed fix: Drop the Ghoul and the Wight to 0-2 positions.
Change the Flesh Golem to: 4/4/2/9 Regen/Stand Firm 110k
Change the Werewolf to 0-2 allowed and 7/4/2/8 Break Tackle, Frenzy 120k

Drop the werewolf entirely. Make him a star available to the Norse and the Necro Undead.
Has anyone considered removing skellies from the current undead roster (increasing Zombies), and - seeing as we're redoing Mummies anyway - renaming what we now have as a Mummy as the Flesh Golem?
There go the balance problems, and people with Undead teams have to do very little to adapt their current teams and tactics.

VAMPIRE:
OFAB has never worked as a method of balancing the Vampire team. This newest version is just another iteration of a formula that doesn't work and has been playtested to death to prove it in multiple formats.
Proposed Fix:
Change OFAB to read as follows:
A player with this characteristic must occasionally feed on the blood of the living. At the start of any action (other than going from stunned to prone), roll a d6. On a 2+ the player may carry out the action as normal. On a '1', however, the player is overcome with a desire for blood and must make a Feeding Action. A player taking a Feeding Action may never hold the ball. If they start a feeding action while holding the ball, they immediately drop it. If they enter a square with the ball, they will automatically fail to pick it up.
Feeding Action: The player may move a number of squares equal to their MA. If the player ends his action standing adjacent to a Thrall from his own team, immediately roll for unmodified injury on that Thrall (the injury to the Thrall will never result in a turnover). If the player does not end his movement next to a Thrall from his own team, then he runs into the Reserves box trying to find pretty maiden groupie to quench his thirst. Place him in the reserves box, this is a turnover.

This works. I've tried.

[Angus McKee]

Going through some old posts, and ran across this. I thought it best to clear up some misconceptions.

If they are worried about how much we pay then why are they ripping us off on the Annuals and mags? 7 bucks is very expensive for what they give us. You don't need to be in the printing industry to know that. Just compare that magazine to any other magazine.

Having no small amount of experience in an offset printing shop, I can assure you of the contrary for small print jobs like Fanatic is producing.

First, it should be pointed out that the greater the number of copies you print, the smaller the cost per copy. This is not a "volume discount" as you might expect, but rather because of the second point, which is:

For small print runs, the highest single the cost of any print job is not in the amount of paper used, nor the ink, nor the collating, nor the binding. It's in the press setup. You can easily spend more than half your printing budget on making plates alone.

Most press men don't like small print runs. A small run means that they have to constantly rework their press. They would much rather set up a job and let it run for hours. Therefore, you pay a premium for small runs. BTW, a "small" print run is measured in the thousands, not tens or hundreds. A large print run is measured in the upper tens of thousands or more.

If you try to compare the Fanatic mags to others, you will probably find that the other mags keep their costs lower by selling advertising space. Fanatic's only advertiser is itself. Other magazines may also cut costs with the quality of paper or binding, while Fanatic is using good quality material.

If you think about it, the Fanatic magazines compare favourable in price to many comic books -- even black and white books -- most of which sell advertising. IMO only, the cost of th Fanatic magazines probably closely reflects the actual cost of their production and distribution. Of course, I have no way of knowing for certain, but that's my impression. I certainly don't feel that they are price gouging us.

However, you may feel that the content is not worth the amount of money they charge, but that's a different matter, totally seperate from the cost of physically producing the product.

Finally, when producing a magazine of this nature -- or the Blood Boal Handbook for that matter -- with the binding that Fanatic is using, the books are optimally arranged in chunks of 16 pages. Each of these chunks will be assembled from four sheets of paper, double sided, and folded. This makes it next to impossible to add only a page or two to a book. Instead, to keep costs in line, it would be necessary to wait until 16 pages worth of material can be added. And don't forget, another 16 pages means another 8 plates for the press ($$$), more paper, more ink (less $$$ but still there), which will cause production costs to rise. If production costs rise, simple economics tells you that the retail price will rise as well.

A bit long winded, to be sure, but I hope this helps explain the cost of the magazines, and why certain new elements (team rosters, for example) were not included in the Blood Bowl handbook.

[Milo]

I don't have the printing experience that Angus does, but this explanation closely matches the one the BBRC itself has received from Fanatic when we have raised similar points.

Milo

[GalakStarscraper]

Two things:

1) Pariah did work in the printing industry, so it will be interesting to see if he tries a rebutal. However what Dean says makes sense to me. I think one of the bigger compliants I've seen about the Mag is that they don't print enough of the darn things not the cost. The last two Mags have sold out in the UK in 1 week and the US doesn't start selling the d*mn things until the information is pretty much stale old and smelly news.

2) Thanks Dean for showing up. Its good to see the 5 BBRC members stopping by more often. A lot of the folks here were beginning to believe that only Chet and JKL actually listened to the internet crowd. Babs starting posting in Sept/Oct more and its good to see you and Milo post some comments here and there. I completely understand that "real life" is more important that reading through posting on TBB, but its good to see you stop by.

Galak

[KnuckleGutKiller]

Fix the damm game before you ask $60.00 for it! The book is miising stuff that is obvious. I mean damm we dont even work for GW and we all know Lizardmen, Norese should be in the book. What a crapy excuse to say you can't print more pages. and be more discriptive with example so no one confuses the damm rules!

[Milo]

Love that constructive criticism and scintillating conversation.

One thing I want to point out, though, is that you get MORE for your $60 than you did for $79.95 when the game was released in 1993, especially when you factor the $40 Death Zone into the mix.

[Angus McKee]

KnuckleGut: When you say "you", to whom are you referring? You seem to be of the mistaken impression that I am responsible for producing Blood Bowl.

Let me make this perfectly clear. I do not work for Fanatic or Games Workshop. Like the other members of the BBRC who do not work for Fanatic, my comments to them are well received, but the final decision is there's and there's alone to make. I, and most of the BBRC, have no direct influence in the physical production of the game.

[Mojoshenpo]

Love that constructive criticism and scintillating conversation.

One thing I want to point out, though, is that you get MORE for your $60 than you did for $79.95 when the game was released in 1993, especially when you factor the $40 Death Zone into the mix.

Ya' mean that GD, cheap-ass, POS mag that took the place of the Death Zone boxed expansion?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I sent mine back to GW with a letter of overwhelming disappointment....

NOT a good argument for cost effectiveness.... The paper was cheaper than military TP and not worth wiping with....



"To Believe That Our Beliefs Are Permanent Truths Which Encompass Reality Is A Sad Arrogance." Ursula K. LeGuin

[Grumbledook]

Erm the deathzone rules have all been put in the new handbook, which is of better quality imho than the original 3rd edition bb and dz books. The fact they come in one box now instead of having to get 2 boxes like i did was a good move. How about you stop moaning about stuff that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things and play the game instead. If your not happy with the rules there is nothing to stop you using house rules for your league or whatever.

I think that the BBRC and Fanatic have made a massive improvement to blood bowl in recent time than the dwinling support its had in the past. Sure there have been some decisions that not everyone agrees with, that stuff happens and at the end of the day ask yourself if you would rather have the support that is there at the moment or have no support at all?