legally re-rolling scatter + Distance dice on the kickoff

daloonieshaman · Post by **daloonieshaman** » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:20 pm

Player in legal position has Kick and boots a fair one.
He is not quite happy with the scatter and distance and because he is a real PRO he takes another whack at it.
The opposing coach throws his hands in the air yelling illegal use of skill to the ref. The Ref ignores him ....
...why?...

Dwarfpete · Post by **Dwarfpete** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:05 pm

I´m not sure but I can understand the other player. PRO may be used "once per turn" - I think the kick-off-sequence is not a part of a turn of any player.

landrover · Post by **landrover** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:37 pm

Pete is correct. You cannot reroll kickoff dice.

daloonieshaman · Post by **daloonieshaman** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:07 pm

not quite
The Kickoff reroll rules and the reroll rules say you may not use a team RR to reroll the results of the scatter direction, distance, kickoff table or die rolls inside the kickoff table (such as the d3 in cheering fans)
AND
A coach may use any number of player skill rolls to reroll the results (that apply to the situation of course)
Nor may you use a team RR for a catch: however you may use an appropriate skill such as catch or pro to reroll the catch
kick says the player is allowed to use the kick skill to kick the ball (not the team the player)
Pro says you may reroll ANY roll other than A,I, or C (as normal for those 3) (it is not a team RR so scatter direction and distance are specifically not mentioned)
Based on the example on the Kickoff reroll rules, the team RR rules, and the a fore mentioned skill descriptions and player reroll rules, you may in fact use pro to reroll the kick skill

The question is:
can you use a team RR to reroll the use of the Pro skill during a kickoff?
For the scatter? YES (it is not a scatter direction, distance, A,I,or C)
for the catch? 55% NO as it is grey. you are not rerolling the catch you are rerolling the pro

besters · Post by **besters** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:50 am

The rules say you can only use a team re-roll in your own turn, I think that most people would agree the kick off isn't part of a turn.

Smeborg · Post by **Smeborg** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:01 am

According to the skill description, Pro may be used "Once per turn..." This may be your turn or the opponent's turn (I believe). The only exception to this is listed under "THE KICKOFF TABLE" (page 18 in my edition) which says: "however, players may use the Catch or Pro skill to try to re-roll the catch roll [following kick-off].

Thus, by simple elimination, Pro may not be used to re-roll anything else to do with the Kick-Off, or indeed anything else which does not occur during a player turn.

Hope that helps.

daloonieshaman · Post by **daloonieshaman** » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:59 pm

Smeborg wrote:According to the skill description, Pro may be used "Once per turn..." This may be your turn or the opponent's turn (I believe). The only exception to this is listed under "THE KICKOFF TABLE" (page 18 in my edition) which says: "however, players may use the Catch or Pro skill to try to re-roll the catch roll [following kick-off].

Thus, by simple elimination, Pro may not be used to re-roll anything else to do with the Kick-Off, or indeed anything else which does not occur during a player turn.

Hope that helps.

Interesting theory but ... there are other things at play here
first a kick is not a catch
second the team RR is flawed in it's description.
It says you may not use a team RR to effect the events of the kickoff results then a blitz indicates that you may use a team RR during the blitz
pro say you may reroll ANY roll other than A,I,C
Also since rules counter act each other...
under rerolls it says "During your turn", and it does not say during a kickoff, then under kickoff Team reroll it uses I don't know how many words describing when you cannot use a team RR during the kickoff.
also:
under player rr it states you may use player skills throughout the game. the kickoff table allows the use of skills during the kickoff so with the wide list of things you may use pro for even during the kickoff ... you may 100% use pro to reroll the kick (distance + scatter)

The oddball is since it is specifically NOT banned in the kickoff as when everthing else

Xeterog · Post by **Xeterog** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:05 am

1) The kick off is not a turn

2) A team RR can only be used during your own team turn, and specifically can not be used on the kick-off table

3) This doesn't apply to Blitz! because it is a bonus turn, thus enabling the use of team RRs (so team RR's are not flawed at all)

4) Pro says 'Once per TURN' you can use it. The Kick off IS NOT A TURN. The kickoff has a specific rule that allows pro to be used on the catch, but nothing else is allowed because the Kick-off is not a turn

5) Rules, in general, should not be read as "it doesn't say I can't so I can" but rather be read as "it doesn't say I can, so I can't". The kick-off rules, the Pro skill, the turn sequence, the kick skill--nothing in the rules at all about allowing Pro to re-roll the distance/scatter rolls.

6) Under player RR's, it says that the skills may allow a Re-Roll under certain circumstances. It also says a coach may use any number of player RR's IN THE SAME TURN. The Kick-off is not a turn. So, unless specifically ALLOWED, no skill can be used during a kickoff. now, we know that there are skills that are specifically mentioned to be usable during the kick-off in some way or another (kick, catch, using pro to catch a ball, kickoff return, etc). However, no where is it mentioned in the rules that pro is able to RR the distance/scatter rules.

The ref should be fired/fined for making a bad call.

oh, and on the use of a Team RR being used during a kick-off to RR a pro roll.. no way you could do so at all, since the kickoff is not a turn.

daloonieshaman · Post by **daloonieshaman** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:01 am

You may use Pro to re-roll ANY player dice rolls <yes>
You may use it once a turn <yes>
A Kickoff is not a turn <yes>
But you can use Pro during a kickoff <yes>
You can use other skills during a kickoff <yes> (kick ... Kickoff return ... Diving Catch) (even if it doesn't say so ... Disturbing Presence ... No Hands ... Extra Arms)

As far as a team RR to re-roll a Pro on the Kick skill? The developers went a hell of a long way saying when you cannot use a team RR during a kickoff instead of saying: You may not use a team RR during a kickoff (other than a blitz)

The funny this is it is a mute point
who will give a lineman with Kick the Pro skill (or any lineman for that reason)
It is a rarely used skill and only used in a few situations:

Troll (I have proven this a thousand times over)
a Blitzer/Blocker on his 4th or 5th skill
other players may have some individual favorites of course

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:50 am

You could just use someone else's Pro skill, couldn't you?

Blitz! is treated as a turn. That's why you can use Pro during it.

dode74 · Post by **dode74** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:40 am

Ullis wrote:You could just use someone else's Pro skill, couldn't you?

No, because Pro is a personal RR.

This is how I see it:

THE KICK-OFF
After both teams have set up, the coach of the kicking team
places the ball in any square in the opponent"s half of the pitch,
including the opponent"s End Zone if he likes. The ball will then
scatter in a random direction. Using the Scatter template, roll the
eight-sided dice once for the direction of scatter, and then roll a
D6 to see how many squares the ball will go

Nowhere here does it say that the coach selects a player to carry out the kick, and any suggestion that you do so is an assumption based solely on how you are picturing the kick-off, not the rules. As such, player rerolls do not qualify for use.

Kick (General)
The player is an expert at kicking the ball and can place the kick with
great precision. In order to use this skill the player must be set up on the
pitch when his team kicks off. The player may not be set up in either wide
zone or on the line of scrimmage. Only if all these conditions are met is
the player then allowed to take the kick-off.

This is the only reference to a specific player taking a kick-off in the rulebook. As such, the only time a player reroll may qualify is when the player has the kick skill. So the only possible out is the use of the Pro skill when a player has the Kick skill. However...

Pro (General)
A player with this skill is a hardened veteran. Such players are called
professionals or Pros by other Blood Bowl players because they rarely
make a mistake. Once per turn, a Pro is allowed to re-roll any one dice
roll he has made other than Armour, Injury or Casualty, even if he is
Prone or Stunned.

Pro can only be used during a turn. The question then, is, is the kick-off a turn? The answer is no, as has already been pointed out.
The exception to this rule is stated on page 18 of CRP where it allows the use of the Catch skill or the Pro skill. Why specify Catch and Pro and not mention Diving Catch, Kick, KOR, DP, No Hands or Extra Arms? Because this section of CRP is talking about rerolls during the kick-off, rather than skills. Mention of other skills is a red herring in this context.

So, imo, the actual kick of the ball is not rerollable at all since it does not happen in a turn, and Pro requires there to be a turn happening apart from the exception specified on Page 18.

Aino · Post by **Aino** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:28 am

dode74 wrote:
Ullis wrote:You could just use someone else's Pro skill, couldn't you?
No, because Pro is a personal RR.

This is how I see it:
THE KICK-OFF
After both teams have set up, the coach of the kicking team
places the ball in any square in the opponent"s half of the pitch,
including the opponent"s End Zone if he likes. The ball will then
scatter in a random direction. Using the Scatter template, roll the
eight-sided dice once for the direction of scatter, and then roll a
D6 to see how many squares the ball will go
Nowhere here does it say that the coach selects a player to carry out the kick, and any suggestion that you do so is an assumption based solely on how you are picturing the kick-off, not the rules. As such, player rerolls do not qualify for use.
Kick (General)
The player is an expert at kicking the ball and can place the kick with
great precision. In order to use this skill the player must be set up on the
pitch when his team kicks off. The player may not be set up in either wide
zone or on the line of scrimmage. Only if all these conditions are met is
the player then allowed to take the kick-off.
This is the only reference to a specific player taking a kick-off in the rulebook. As such, the only time a player reroll may qualify is when the player has the kick skill. So the only possible out is the use of the Pro skill when a player has the Kick skill. However...

Pro (General)
A player with this skill is a hardened veteran. Such players are called
professionals or Pros by other Blood Bowl players because they rarely
make a mistake. Once per turn, a Pro is allowed to re-roll any one dice
roll he has made other than Armour, Injury or Casualty, even if he is
Prone or Stunned.
Pro can only be used during a turn. The question then, is, is the kick-off a turn? The answer is no, as has already been pointed out.
The exception to this rule is stated on page 18 of CRP where it allows the use of the Catch skill or the Pro skill. Why specify Catch and Pro and not mention Diving Catch, Kick, KOR, DP, No Hands or Extra Arms? Because this section of CRP is talking about rerolls during the kick-off, rather than skills. Mention of other skills is a red herring in this context.

So, imo, the actual kick of the ball is not rerollable at all since it does not happen in a turn, and Pro requires there to be a turn happening apart from the exception specified on Page 18.

+1
Good summary !

Aino · Post by **Aino** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:31 am

daloonieshaman wrote:Player in legal position has Kick and boots a fair one.
He is not quite happy with the scatter and distance and because he is a real PRO he takes another whack at it.
The opposing coach throws his hands in the air yelling illegal use of skill to the ref. The Ref ignores him ....
...why?...

Because he's deaf and blind and unaware of the rules?

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