Pick up a ball

[Greyhound]

For clarity the action does not end until he bites.

Imagine in the last turn the last thrall was cas-ed. The vampire runs to the EZ, but to finish his action he must bite. He gets sent off BEFORE his action ends.

About the pass-catch rule. I don't have the rule right now but check out the FAQ last question. Catching is part of the pass I think.

[daloonieshaman]

For clarity the action does not end until he bites.

Imagine in the last turn the last thrall was cas-ed. The vampire runs to the EZ, but to finish his action he must bite. He gets sent off BEFORE his action ends.

About the pass-catch rule. I don't have the rule right now but check out the FAQ last question. Catching is part of the pass I think.

Catch, intercept, passblock, fumble, scatter are all part of the pass action

Does his action end when he is ejected?

[Greyhound]

Again it's an assumption. A real headache if not!

[duckwing]

Why do everybody assume that the ACTION ends as soon as the fumble/failure/circumstance that causes a turnover occurs?

I've said it before, no where in the rules does it say that the Action ends as soon as you drop the ball. It say that the action ends immediately when you get a TURNOVER, and the turnover occurs when the ball has come to rest (for example in the hands of a player that may do a TD).

There are a few exceptions, specified in skill descriptions, but generally there is nothing to say that a players action ends before the moving teams turn ends (for example because of a turnover).

[daloonieshaman]

Why do everybody assume that the ACTION ends as soon as the fumble/failure/circumstance that causes a turnover occurs?

I've said it before, no where in the rules does it say that the Action ends as soon as you drop the ball. It say that the action ends immediately when you get a TURNOVER, and the turnover occurs when the ball has come to rest (for example in the hands of a player that may do a TD).

There are a few exceptions, specified in skill descriptions, but generally there is nothing to say that a players action ends before the moving teams turn ends (for example because of a turnover).

page 7 and 8 of the rule book
picking up the ball & turnover

dropped ball
immediate turnover
turnover causes action to immediately end
bounce ball

the only time the turnover occurs after the ball comes to rest is a pass and a fumble (#3 and #6 in turnovers) otherwise the turnover happens THEN bounce the ball, at the bottom paragraph of pg 7

[Ulthuan_Express]

Yeah, the rules say (as have been quoted many times) passing-related turnovers only happen after the ball comes to rest not in your hands (from the Turnovers sub-section of Passing), while picking-up turnovers happen immediately. This is where the confusion lies, hence X pages of debate.

[duckwing]

I don't find anything on page 7 that says that the action ends before the turnover occurs and nothing that says that the turnover occurs before the bounce is resolved. Neither does the passage on page 8 state that the turnover occurs before the bounce. It says that the ball bounces from the square of the player. In the next sentence it says that a turnover occurs if the player drops the ball, which to me implies that the bounce should be resolved before the turnover occurs. Especially as that is how fumbled passes on p. 22 are described.

[daloonieshaman]

#3 "Turnovers" failed pickup (means if you fail to pick up the ball it is a turnover)

In rereading the rules on page 7 a light came on
The end of your turn

Many things happen during the end of your turn
1) moved all your players you are done with your actions, roll the stunned players.
Your turn completed
If there is no between turn special events (Wiz and Cards)
opponents turn starts

2) You suffer a turnover from a list of 8 things (there are 2 delays) will proceed into the end of turn process
#3 Pass/Handoff resolve scatter (if not caught TO exist)
#6 Fumble scatter TO regardless of catch

Process end of turn
a) your player's ACTION ends immediately
b)Make your A/I rolls (if necessary)
c)scatter a dropped errant ball (pickup, trip, land, eat, vamp, block, foul) (if necessary)
d)roll stuns over
your Turn completed

if necessary Special between turn events (Wiz Cards)

Opponent's Turn begins

wait you don't process chit ...
Like any other event in Blood Bowl you process a ton of stuff during the course of that event

let's start simple
Move:
count squares
make necessary rolls for dodge/Leap ect
GFI
"face your player" (turn him out of the direction of your players so you both remember he has moved)

Block:
calculate total Str
roll dice
choose result
process result of choice

push
down
stay
chain push
push down
followup
Skill use

roll necessary armor/injury
remove necessary player (*before scattering the ball*)
scatter necessary ball (we all know sometimes this can take forever)
"face your player"

phew and that was just one block

try a stunty throw player for a td with GFI

see a ton of stuff happens in the course of that event
so even though your turn ends immediately you still have stuff to do during that process (listed exception of course #2 pass/handoff, #6 fumble)

[Ulthuan_Express]

Neither does the passage on page 8 state that the turnover occurs before the bounce. It says that the ball bounces from the square of the player. In the next sentence it says that a turnover occurs if the player drops the ball, which to me implies that the bounce should be resolved before the turnover occurs. Especially as that is how fumbled passes on p. 22 are described.

The passage doesn't say that you're not allowed to punch the opposing coach in the face, so let's not draw anything from what it doesn't say, ok?

Both P8. (MOVEMENT - Picking up the ball) and P22. (INTERCEPTIONS AND FUMBLES) have a crucial word in there: immediately.

Your turn ends immmediately. Not after it comes to rest, like a pass/catch. Immediately. You roll the non-pick-up, your turn is over right there. Immediately. It doesn't matter if another one of your players grabs the bouncing ball, because your turn is already over. As, in the OP, your opponent has had his final turn already, he doesn't get a turn in which you automatically score for being in the endzone with the ball.

As for which comes first, here's the passage relevant to what we're doing:

If the D6 roll is less than the required total, then the player drops the ball, which will bounce one square. If the player drops the ball then his team suffers a turnover and their turn ends immediately.

If A happens, B happens. If A happens, C also happens immediately.

If you drop the ball, it scatters. If you drop the ball, it's a turnover.

If you drop the ball, it scatters and is also an immediate turnover. Not: If you drop the ball it scatters and is then a turnover, as the two events happen at the same time as a result of dropping it.

I don't find anything on page 7 that says that the action ends before the turnover occurs and nothing that says that the turnover occurs before the bounce is resolved.

This is completely true - (P13. PASSING - Turnovers. "The turnover does not take place until the ball finally comes to rest."), and is irrelevant to the situation we're discussing as it apples to Passing/Catching. There's surely no sense in reading the Passing rules to give indications as to what to do when a failed Pick Up occurs - you read the relevant 'Picking Up The Ball' section, right? If the Pick-Up turnover it was only after the ball comes to rest it would surely specifically say so, like it does in the Passing rules. Hell, they could (would/should) have copied and pasted the same bit of text if it was meant to be the same procedure.

[alternat]

There's surely no sense in reading the Passing rules to give indications as to what to do when a failed Pick Up occurs

see, for me makes no sense to treat two situations that have exactly the same mechanism (bouncing ball due to failed action) and the same outcome (turnover), the only diffrence between the two being the fact that some are turnover per se, and others are not, in two different ways simply because the rulebook doesn't repeat itself over again.

but you know, we are imaginative people, who likes mom, and mandolins, and pizza...

[Ulthuan_Express]

There's surely no sense in reading the Passing rules to give indications as to what to do when a failed Pick Up occurs

see, for me makes no sense to treat two situations that have exactly the same mechanism (bouncing ball due to failed action) and the same outcome (turnover), the only diffrence between the two being the fact that some are turnover per se, and others are not, in two different ways simply because the rulebook doesn't repeat itself over again.

but you know, we are imaginative people, who likes mom, and mandolins, and pizza...

Yes, the fumble when passing and the failed pick-up are outlined exactly the same way, while a scattered pass or failed catch are outlined a different way.

Plus it could all be simplified with a single Turnover section, where the exact process is outlined and used the same way in every occurrence. If the ball scatter is meant to be resolved before any TO occurs (or not, if you manage to grab it), then it should bloody well say so, rather than say something different in two sections.

Dear god this situation has turned me into a rules lawyer. I think I'll go play with Khemri now, so I rarely have to worry about picking up or throwing the ball at all.

[Smurf]

It the turn end immediately do you stop all dice rolling and allow your opponent to carry on the game?

[duckwing]

Neither does the passage on page 8 state that the turnover occurs before the bounce. It says that the ball bounces from the square of the player. In the next sentence it says that a turnover occurs if the player drops the ball, which to me implies that the bounce should be resolved before the turnover occurs. Especially as that is how fumbled passes on p. 22 are described.

The passage doesn't say that you're not allowed to punch the opposing coach in the face, so let's not draw anything from what it doesn't say, ok?

Yes! That's what I'm trying to say! Yet we still come to different conclusions

I could go on about this but I just realized that I don't need to. Most sensible coaches would simply count the TD to have occured at the same time as the Turnover (i.e. neither coach loses a turn) and if I ever play against someone where this situation occur and they begin rules lawyering... well I'll deal with that then and there.

[daloonieshaman]

It the turn end immediately do you stop all dice rolling and allow your opponent to carry on the game?

no you follow the process of the end of turn
just as you follow the process of Blocking ect

Process end of turn
a) your player's ACTION ends immediately
b)Make your A/I rolls (if necessary)
c)scatter a dropped errant ball (pickup, trip, land, eat, vamp, block, foul) (if necessary)
d)roll stuns over
your Turn completed

duckwing
that is why it is not a touchdown
(time for your buts)

you make all the necessary rolls (if needed)
order of process prevails
player action ends
then scatter ball

(duckwing: "no that is not right")

do you scatter the ball before you push a player back, and knock them down
do you scatter before you select the result of the block
do you scatter before you roll armor & injury

No other option than NO TD
sorry that is just the flow of EVERY aspect of the game and it is not rules Lawering

If you do not wish to play correctly that is your house rules game

[duckwing]

It the turn end immediately do you stop all dice rolling and allow your opponent to carry on the game?

no you follow the process of the end of turn
just as you follow the process of Blocking ect

Process end of turn
a) your player's ACTION ends immediately
b)Make your A/I rolls (if necessary)
c)scatter a dropped errant ball (pickup, trip, land, eat, vamp, block, foul) (if necessary)
d)roll stuns over
your Turn completed

duckwing
that is why it is not a touchdown
(time for your buts)

the part of the process that I've been saying you got wrong is a). The ACTION doesn't end until your turn is completed. Go back and read my previous postings if you want to know my reasoning, for I won't be reasoning any more (for a few days at least)

do you scatter the ball before you push a player back, and knock them down
do you scatter before you select the result of the block
do you scatter before you roll armor & injury

I fail to see how this is relevant.