When to roll for knockouts

[Tim]

I see no ambiguity, and never did, by the way.

I know that I'm repeating myself, but that's the case:
since both coaches are allowed to set up for kick-off, both coaches are also allowed to roll for KO. ditto.
no matter if that "you" is singular or plural: the words talk to both coaches, and the insurance given by galak and darkson simply confirm this interpretation.

It's not the question IF you are allowed to roll for KOs, but WHEN you are allowed. If you are allowed to roll only before YOU (sing.) set up, it's a disadvantage for the coach who has to set up first as the receiving coach can wait with the KO rolls for his players until after the kicking coach has finished his setup. So the kicking coach does not know yet which KOed opponents players will not be available for the drive.

I'll take any ruling - as long as we agree it isn't in the text

Exactly my point ...

[Darkson]

and the insurance given by galak and darkson simply confirm this interpretation.

Um, I didn't give any assurances - that was Doubleskulls. I just pointed out that daloonie was using the same text as Tim and claiming no amibiguity.
For what it's worth, we've always played the way Galak and Doubleskull's have said, and will continue to do so, but I can see where the question comes from.

[purdindas]

I've had bad experiences with rules lawyers in the past but in this case it seems like a legitimate point has been raised.

[alternat]

It's not the question IF you are allowed to roll for KOs, but WHEN you are allowed. If you are allowed to roll only before YOU (sing.) set up, it's a disadvantage for the coach who has to set up first as the receiving coach can wait with the KO rolls for his players until after the kicking coach has finished his setup. So the kicking coach does not know yet which KOed opponents players will not be available for the drive.

it's pointless again, since the kicking team, setting up first, will neither now if even a KO-saved player will be fielded as well, or he will remain in the dugout for some reason.
Unfortunately, I have no supernatural powers that allows me to konw which opponent player will be on field in the next drive (unless my opponent has 11 or less), neither where they will be placed.
And even if I knew which players will be fielded, my opponent is free to place them to his best advantage, regardless of my placement, whatever it may be.

The only thing that I can predict with good accuracy is if that reroll will issue another 1.

[alternat]

I didn't give any assurances - that was Doubleskulls...

sorry for the misquote. just didn't check.

[Darkson]

It makes a big difference, especially if you're kicking to someone that's taken a lot of KOs. If, as we've always interpreted (and as Galak and DS have confirmed) that you both roll before setting up, then you know how many they've got coming back, and can set up accordingly (perhaps for a big push vs 6 players). If the receiving coach only rolls after the kicking team has set up, you won't know how many you're facing, so will likely set up differently.

For example (using a recent game in our league), I score against 3 standing players, who also have 8 KOs (and only 1 Cas ).
Both roll before setting up: I know he's only passed 2 KO rolls (which was what happened), and set up my 11 players in an aggressive set-up.
He rolls after I set up: I don't know whether he'll have 3, 11 or anywhere inbetween players for the drive, so set up in a more standard configuarion.

[Tim]

it's pointless again, since the kicking team, setting up first, will neither now if even a KO-saved player will be fielded as well, or he will remain in the dugout for some reason.

OK, here's an example: I play Skaven (no Frenzy skill picks) and my Ratogre is KOed. You set up for defence. If we both make the KO rolls first, and the Ratogre does not come back, you can close down the sidelines more effectively than if you are threatend by the availability of the Ratogre.

Same goes for other player types: frenzy in general, one turners, other speedy players (affects depth of defensive setup), etc.

i'm not saying it's a vital issue, but it's definitely not "pointless".

Edit: Darkson's simultanious post gives more examples.

[alternat]

Both roll before setting up: I know he's only passed 2 KO rolls (which was what happened), and set up my 11 players in an aggressive set-up.
He rolls after I set up: I don't know whether he'll have 3, 11 or anywhere inbetween players for the drive, so set up in a more standard configuarion.

and how many times did such situation happened? That's a limit case, IMHO, and don't count for statistics.
most likely, it would not have made any difference if you set up in a "standard configuration" and your opponent just fielded five players...

well, ok, it is not pointless.
I just wonder how many times it would have make a difference.

[daloonieshaman]

Look at it this way
Guy sets up kicking team and decides NOT to put in his super duper frenzy, MB, and everything else player. You (breath a sigh of releaf) change one or 2 of the players that you would have been "forced" to play just to deal with that guy.


KO is same thing
he sets up, (you see what he has), and he is done, (caused you asked him, you done?)
Then you roll KO's and decide what players you are going to field and then set up.

hopefully you don't hemha setting up

[Darkson]

KO is same thing
he sets up, (you see what he has), and he is done, (caused you asked him, you done?)
Then you roll KO's and decide what players you are going to field and then set up.

Which is incorrect.

[GalakStarscraper]

KO is same thing
he sets up, (you see what he has), and he is done, (caused you asked him, you done?)
Then you roll KO's and decide what players you are going to field and then set up.

Which is incorrect.

Yes it is incorrect.

KO'd rolls happen before either player starts to set up.

Galak

[daloonieshaman]

KO is same thing
he sets up, (you see what he has), and he is done, (caused you asked him, you done?)
Then you roll KO's and decide what players you are going to field and then set up.

Which is incorrect.

Yes it is incorrect.

KO'd rolls happen before either player starts to set up.

Galak

not what the rules says
It says "before you set up any players" ... not before both coaches set up any players

your are mistaken, but regardless of what I point out, you will see it your way
but I still love ya

[Darkson]

Did you bother to read the thread?

[daloonieshaman]

Did you bother to read the thread?

yes and my view still stands

I still do not see the wild tangent you went down to determine that the KO in any way shape or form indicates that both coaches roll before either team sets up.

[Darkson]

So you disagree with both Galak and Doubleskulls?