Re-rolls and end of turn

[TalonBay]

yes and we have answered the question of catching the bouncing ball and rerolls.
You cannot use a team re-roll to catch the ball
you may use a skill reroll (in this case catch)

You're quite positive about this and you've been on here longer than me so you're more likely to have it right, but what you say doesn't tie with what I understand from the rules. If this has been discussed / clarified before have you got a link to a thread so I could read it there rather than re-tread old ground?

[Smurf]

From memory:

TRR from a kick off - no, the turn has not started yet!

Failed action causing a turn over, well you can reroll to prevent it then it is not your turn... IIRC you can only use the TRR during your turn, which has now ended.

We have discussed the 'clean up faze' before: Armour/Injury and bounce ball happens, if you will, inbetween turns of the failed action and the start of your opponent's turn. However, if they score in this faze because of a bouncing ball then it is treated as scored in your opponent's turn.

This appears to be the logical sequence to a highly unlikely scenario.

Cyanide BB has been criticised at length for being subpar experience of our excellent board game.

[Greyhound]

TRR from a kick off - no, the turn has not started yet!

But there is no player action/roll during the kick off anyway so this is irrelevant!

Cyanide BB has been criticised at length for being subpar experience of our excellent board game.

I agree Cyanide BB is not an accurate representation of the rules.

[Smurf]

I disagree. You can only use a TRR in your turn. I was not discussing player rerolls

[Kolja_TBBF]

I think you can use a team reroll.
The picked up isn't actually 'failed' until you have exhausted your reroll options, either through the use of surehands or a team reroll. If you use a team reroll and succeed, the pick up was never actually failed, was it?

There's a difference between picking up and catching the ball. When the ball is on the ground and you move a player over it, the player tries to pick up the ball. Sure Hands, Extra Arms and Big Hand come into play here. If the pick up fails the ball bounces and another player can catch it. With a catch you can use skills such as Catch, Nerves of Steel, Extra Arms and Disturbing Presence.

This question was about using the reroll on the catch attempt, not on the pick up roll.

Whatever, it's the exact same principle. Of course you can use a reroll of any kind.

[Greyhound]

Whatever, it's the exact same principle. Of course you can use a reroll of any kind.

Well no, you can't use a TRR since the turn ended the second you failed to pick up.
So you can use a catch RR but not a TRR since it's not your turn anymore.

[Kolja_TBBF]

Never mind. Edited due to a misunderstanding.

[Kolja_TBBF]

Never mind...

[Greyhound]

So according to you a player using Sure Hands to reroll a pick up suffers a turnover, no matter the result of the Sure Hands reroll? Because the pick up 'failed', a turnover occurred and Sure Hands makes no mention of it stoping a turnover even if successful? That is what you are arguing for.

No the pick up only fails once you've completed the action. Rolling, Rerolling, adding modifier etc... are all part of the action. Then after your rerolls, adding +1 for picking up, -2 for the TZ, you end up with a number which fails the AG roll, your action fails. Turn ends. Then the ball scatter, for example gets out of bond, get thrown back, fall on one of your player with the catch skill, who fails the roll twice and therefore to catch it, scatter again in the hands of your unskilled, lino, he fails the roll.... you can't use a TRR to reroll that cath since you turn ended the second when your sure hands thrower failed to pick up the ball.

I obviously disagree. The pick up is not failed until reroll attempts are exhausted. The reroll, by definition, replaces the original result and any consequences of that, including a possible turnover. Therefore, you can use a skill reroll or a team reroll to replace a failed pickup or catch and prevent a turnover from ever occurring. There is no partial effects. The reroll replaces the original roll in all ways, including any consequences.

And you're correct, I'm not talking about pick up, I'm talking about catching a bouncing ball, the subject of this thread.

Ps. I assume you meant Sure Hands for the pick-up, not Catch, which obviously doesn't apply.

Wrong assumption, this about bouncing ball, not pick ups.

[Kolja_TBBF]

Ah, I had misread the original post, which I will paraphrase here:
Player A fails a pick up and the coach doesn't use a TRR to reroll it. The bouncing ball goes to player B of the same team who fails to catch it. Can the coach use a TRR to reroll that catch?
I would say yes, since the a 'turnover' means that the coach is not allowed to take other Actions and must end this one immediately, including any rolls, and doesn't mean that their turn ends that very second. It is clear that what it means is that the coach can't use other players and has to stop the current players Action. Then, since there is nothing left to do, play passes to the other coach. The rules are pretty clear about the proceedure of a turnover.

[Greyhound]

I would also like to point out that the same argument that is being made for not allowing TRRs on a pickup apply to fumbles: no TRR allowed on a fumbled pass.

I think this is also clearly not the intent of the game designers nor is it what is written in the rules.

a fumbled throw is not a fumbled pass. You turnover only if you don't catch it:

TURNOVERS
If a ball thrown by a player isn't caught by a player from the moving team, this causes a turnover and the moving team"s turn ends.

I have no idea why you associate rolling and actions so tightly.
Rolling a die and getting a 1 is not a fumbled pass until you've accepted that roll. Of course you can TRR a fumbled pass!!!
Even if you roll a 1 you haven't turnover yet. There is the Safe Throw skill you can apply and it prevents the fumble. Once you have exhausted all your options and accepted the Fumble THEN it is a turnover!

[Kolja_TBBF]

I would also like to point out that the same argument that is being made for not allowing TRRs on a pickup apply to fumbles: no TRR allowed on a fumbled pass.

I think this is also clearly not the intent of the game designers nor is it what is written in the rules.

a fumbled throw is not a fumbled pass. You turnover only if you don't catch it:

TURNOVERS
If a ball thrown by a player isn't caught by a player from the moving team, this causes a turnover and the moving team"s turn ends.

I have no idea why you associate rolling and actions so tightly.
Rolling a die and getting a 1 is not a fumbled pass until you've accepted that roll. Of course you can TRR a fumbled pass!!!
Even if you roll a 1 you haven't turnover yet. There is the Safe Throw skill you can apply and it prevents the fumble. Once you have exhausted all your options and accepted the Fumble THEN it is a turnover!

Yeah, I misunderstood the original question. We both agree on this point. I'm going to just delete that post since it adds confusion to the thread.

[Greyhound]

now you have me VERY confused.

Ah, I had misread the original post, which I will paraphrase here:
Player A fails a pick up and the coach doesn't use a TRR to reroll it. The bouncing ball goes to player B of the same team who fails to catch it. Can the coach use a TRR to reroll that catch?

Up to here we have the correct information and right context.

I would say yes, since the a 'turnover' means that the coach is not allowed to take other Actions and must end this one immediately, including any rolls, and doesn't mean that their turn ends that very second.

that's where we disagree, so I'll use the wording of the rules:

PICKING UP THE BALL
[...]If the D6 roll is less than the required total, then the player drops the ball, which will bounce one square. If the player drops the ball then his team suffers a turnover and their
turn ends immediately.

So you probably saw the last word like I did, dropping the ball, means you suffer a turnover... AND your turn ends immediately. Not just they suffer a turnover, finish up the bounce and everything else, and then later once you cleaned up all the mess you did you can consider ending the turn. The text of the rule stipulates that not only this is a turnover but also the fact that the turns ends at the immediate moment when the player drops the ball.

It is clear that what it means is that the coach can't use other players and has to stop the current players Action. Then, since there is nothing left to do, play passes to the other coach. The rules are pretty clear about the proceedure of a turnover.

I agree they are very clear, they stipulate the immediate end of the turn therefore showing that further rolls cannot use a team RR, which by definition is only used during your turn.

[Kolja_TBBF]

I see your point but I don't think the designers put in that "immediately" as a specific yet obscure way of saying that TRRs can't be used. I think they were just trying to make it clear that the turn is basically over, especially for new players who may not be familiar with the Blood Bowl "turnover" (as opposed to, say, meaning that the ball changes possession). The rules are not written in legalese. If they were then they would simply say that there is a turnover and TRRs can't be used.

Also, 'immediately' is a very relative term. One person's 'immediately' is another person's 'as soon as reasonably can be done'.

[Greyhound]

that conversation has been done over and over again, so I won't hurt your eyes with my bad spelling and poor writing, you can read it again and again on these forums (look I've even made the search easy for you: (Search)

Essentially your last post is: I would like to apply personal interpretation to this word, and use my own judgement to evaluate the importance of this extra sentence. We all do it at some point, and I value your point of view, albeit I do not share it.