passing and handoff in the same turn

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Poxous
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Post by Poxous »

Very funny. I'm saying people aren't reading the wording correctly. Nobody can explain why the same wroding didn't allow it before and yet it does now? Sorry but the update in the BB mag says rule CHANGE. Then the rules were rewriten without the change. So, reading the plain English as it is writen in the LRB a hand IS a type of pass. Just like it was in the orignal rules.

Yes, I know rules aren't perfect all the time but it is obvious to me the designer didn't intend a hand off and pass combo if he went and CHANGED the rules once before. Then in the LRB the new rule was omitted, possibly by mistake. You can't use the same rules for hand off in two seperate rule eds and have it mean two different things!

Nowhere does it say you can. It says a hand off is an action. Period. So you can't block and hand off. People are assuming you can and ignoring the first line: a hand off IS a type of short pass. Nuff said. Nothing anyone says can dispute this. Thus, a clairification is needed.

Aparently other people are reading this like myself and many are still using the 4th ed rule from BB mag. Fine. I just want a clairification. :wink:

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Poxous
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Post by Poxous »

method wrote:poxy, poxy.... there's no dening it friend....
you see here plainly amist other bloodbowl coaches that it is possible...
tell ya what... i'll just stop playing elves to help you out.....
halflings perhaps....... :D :D :D
You are a little man Jerry. Do you still have a boner from finally beating me? For some the little things in life feel so large! :o

:zzz: tiried of braging in realife. Even more tired online.

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Poxous
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Post by Poxous »

Please allow me to quote the 4th ed rules update that changed from the original rules perhapse you will see the designers intent:

"The Hand Off rule should state that you may now take up to two Pass actions per turn; one that ends with a hand-off and one that ends with a pass"

Note: may take two PASS actions....hmmm :roll:

So it is painfully obvious the rules in the living rule book DO NOT allow a hand and a pass; as the same rule, for hand offs, was in the original rules, word for word, and then the above statments were added! This 4th ed( from BB mag#2) add on was not added to the living rule book and therefore not a 'rule'. As the rule reads a hand off IS a pass. Even in the above change it is called a PASS!!!!! I can not see how anyone can dispute this with the knowledge that the designers felt that the above quote had to be added in order to add the new 'rule'. The living rulebook doesn't have this statement, rather it has the statment this old rule was to be added to proving that a hand off is a pass and only one 'pass' action can happen per turn..be it a long bomb, a short pass, or hand off.

Like I said before: can a designer please step up and say it can be used because if not... than hand off and pass in the same turn is agianst the rules! :o

Sorry if this rocks the boat in some peoples playbook but there's no place that says you CAN. If it doesn't say you can then you can not. FACT. This comes up in other GW games too. Ed flashbacks... Many people read into things because they were. This seems to be a case.

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Post by Grumbledook »

4th edition was scrapped, ignore it completly.

In the old 3rd edition rules a hand off was a free action, you could do it at any time and wasn't considered an action. The LRB has just been updated from the old 3rd edition and hence there are some poorly worded sections that have confused some of the rules changes. A hand off is now an action and just like in 3rd edition you can make one handoff and one pass in a team turn.

You have had loads of people telling you thats how the rules work, why are you still flogging this dead horse. We know its badly worded and this isn't the only rule that this has happened to.

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Poxous
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Post by Poxous »

Grumbledook wrote:4th edition was scrapped, ignore it completly.

Correct, the ONLY time hand offs and pass were allowed in the rules.

In the old 3rd edition rules a hand off was a free action, you could do it at any time and wasn't considered an action. The LRB has just been updated from the old 3rd edition and hence there are some poorly worded sections that have confused some of the rules changes. A hand off is now an action and just like in 3rd edition you can make one handoff and one pass in a team turn.

***How was it a free action in 3rd, yet the same words in the current rules say it is an action. I just don't understand the logic. It is the same words. Not a wording problem. In 3rd could you do it? NO. Logic says that the same statement would mean the same thing.

You have had loads of people telling you thats how the rules work, why are you still flogging this dead horse. We know its badly worded and this isn't the only rule that this has happened to.
***A dead horse... o.k. So far loads of people haven't said anyhting only a few. Now, could it be some people are wrong and assume that you can do this? Nobody has come up with an argument to counter the facts. Telling me it's worded badly doesn't mean anything. Rules are black and white. Maybe you don't like them fine, but by the book is what I am aiming at. Nobody has come up with a single point for being able to do two pass actions( hand off and pass).

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Post by Grumbledook »

Right it says you may delcare one hand off action per turn. You may also declare one pass action per turn. SUre it might say it is a type of very short pass, but the pass action involves throwing the ball, the hand off action does not. They are different things.

The rules do not say anywhere that the hand off action is a pass action, unlike throw team mate, which takes the place of the pass action.

There is no where in the rulebook that says you can't have a hand off action and a pass action in the same turn.

The rulebook does say you can have one pass action per turn. It also says you can have one hand off action per turn.

There you go, its clear as mud.

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Post by BlanchPrez »

This sort of came up in a question I asked... so, let's look at the whole quote from the rules, rather than just one sentince.
A hand-off is a type of very Short pass, where the ball is
simply handed to a player that is in an adjacent square.
Handing off the ball is an action, like Move, Blitz, Pass,
etc. You may only declare one hand-off action per turn.
The hand-off is made after the player’s move, just like a
pass. The ball may not be handed off more than once
per team turn, and the ball may not be handed off in the
opponent’s turn.

No dice roll is required to see if the hand-off is on target
– it automatically hits the target square. However, the
player that the ball is handed to must roll to see if they
catch the ball (see Catching the Football on p14). The
hand-off counts as an ‘accurate pass’, so the player that
the ball is handed to receives the +1 modifier to his
Catch roll for an accurate pass.
As someone else pointed out here, it says right in the first paragraph that the hand-off is an action, like a pass. If it was a pass, it wouldn't be it's own action. It would state that the hand-off is a pass, and counts as your pass action for the turn. It also says that a hand-off is made after the move, just like a pass. Again, the rules seperate a hand-off from a pass.

Now, let's look at the second paragraph. Someone could point out that it says there that a hand-off counts as an accurate pass. Yes, it does say that. However, that seems pretty obvious to me to mean that it counts as an accurate pass for purposes of catching the ball. It is not stating that the hand-off is a pass action.

After having this pointed out to me, and re-reading these rules several times, I would say that they are actually pretty clear. You have to look at the entire rule, not just one sintence. I've fallen into that trap before. ;)

Chris

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Post by Mirascael »

Poxous wrote:It says a hand is a type of PASS.
Under actions pass is listed not hand off. Is this a carry over from some other Ed. or am I missing something? After reading the hand off rules among many players it seems the writen word say a hand IS a pass and you can not do more than one pass action per turn. Just checking!!!
Yes, indeed, you're missing something. Hand-off's are introduced in the "expert-part" of the rules (actually the action-list belongs to the beginner's rules)
And you read it wrong too, it means this:
a hand-off is a type of very short PASS.
Though I'm not a native speaker, "type of" means "like a" or "similar to".
And had you read a little further you would have read the following:
"Handing off the ball is an action, like Move, Blitz, Pass etc. (...) The hand-off is made after the player's move, just like a pass." Like a pass - not as a pass or instead of a pass. Pretty obvious, isn't it? 8)
So just relax, admit defeat respectably, don't grudge method his well-deserved victory and enjoy your next match of BB thoroughly!
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Post by wesleytj »

man i can't believe the rules lawyers we have around here...

i'm not going to get into a childish argument of semantics with you, so here's the bottom line. go to any official gw sanctioned or sponsored event. see how they do it...there will be people doing handoffs and passes in the same turn all the time. it's the way the game works.

now if you want to be the only leauge in the world that does it the other way, fine. but don't expect to change everybody to your side because you want to misread the spirit of the rules.

besides not being able to do both would totally screw up the game...would make it a lot more static, a lot less mobile, and lot less fluid, a lot less fun.

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Post by method »

thank christ guys.....
if not, we elf players are going to recieve one hella ass-beating... (moreso than usual that is.. :wink: ) sooo i think that the point of beginner rule section vs expert rule section is a valid one...
BUT for confirmation how do they play it in THE BLoodBowl tourny in the UK???? any particepants to enlighten us....
cuz poxy and i are in the same league and before next season we'd like to iron it out for the fairness of the league( i.e 18 players..)
either way i'm happy, just as long as it's offical....

jerry aka method tubbl's league comissioner.
tubbl.netfirms.com

site needs improvement and about 3 weeks of updates....

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Post by Mirascael »

method wrote:sooo i think that the point of beginner rule section vs expert rule section is a valid one...
BUT for confirmation how do they play it in THE BLoodBowl tourny in the UK???? any particepants to enlighten us....
either way i'm happy, just as long as it's offical....
"Expert Rules" means actually "Standard Rules". Or does your league play with 5 skills only and without fouls, Big Guys etc.?
The Standard rules are actually downtuned rules meant for beginners to start with. They are written for innocent rookies only (playing Blood Bowl certainly leads to loosing your innocence soon).
And, of course, yes, the expert rules are used in official BB tournaments.
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Post by method »

works for me.... i've been playing like that since 95
everyone agreed????

thanks guys.
laate.

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Post by Red Orc »

If you do NOT allow a Pass and Hand Off then how are the poor lil Goblins even going to have a chance at that one turn flying goblin touch down maneuver that is always very impressive if they pull it off. Very funny if they get eaten!

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Poxous
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Post by Poxous »

wesleytj wrote:man i can't believe the rules lawyers we have around here...

i'm not going to get into a childish argument of semantics with you, so here's the bottom line. go to any official gw sanctioned or sponsored event. see how they do it...there will be people doing handoffs and passes in the same turn all the time. it's the way the game works.

***this is why I even asked. People at an the BB in Balti said you could not.......... :wink:

now if you want to be the only leauge in the world that does it the other way, fine. but don't expect to change everybody to your side because you want to misread the spirit of the rules.

besides not being able to do both would totally screw up the game...would make it a lot more static, a lot less mobile, and lot less fluid, a lot less fun.
Maybe...I just don't get why JJ would write a rule meaning one thing, add a rule, then rewrite the rules w/o the addition and have it not mean the same thing??? Nobody has told me a reason why it should work. The Wording is agianst you. Take it to an English Prof.

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Post by Grumbledook »

How about you email jervis and ask him and then stop resisiting what the rules are.

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