Throw Teammate Fumble...turnover or no?

[wesleytj]

back in the day we always played that if the player being thrown had the ball and was fumbled it was a TO, and if he didn't it isn't.

but in lrb rules it seems pretty clear that it's always a to no matter what.

[Sushé Wakka]

There is an official ruling on this. It's on page 8, under turnovers.

"A player from the moving team falls or is knocked over."

If you fumble a throw teammate attempt, the throwee is knocked over in the square they were standing in.

Hence, a turnover. Fumbled passes doesn't even have to come into it.

However, the ruling in Throw Team Mate states that a player who fails its landing roll (and so, ends prone) does NOT cause a turnover, unless it is holding the ball. You could assume that a fumbled teammate is an automatically failed landing roll and so it doesn't cause a turnover, unless the almost thrown guy was holding the ball. I know this is a rather, erm, "weak" argument, but it may lead to confusion.

[Milo]

However, the ruling in Throw Team Mate states that a player who fails its landing roll (and so, ends prone) does NOT cause a turnover, unless it is holding the ball. You could assume that a fumbled teammate is an automatically failed landing roll and so it doesn't cause a turnover, unless the almost thrown guy was holding the ball. I know this is a rather, erm, "weak" argument, but it may lead to confusion.

You seem to be looking for the slimmest of possibilities to overrule what's clearly stated in the rules. Another quote from the rules, page 23, under Throwing Team-Mates:

"If the throw is fumbled then the player being thrown falls over in their starting square.

As long as the thrown player lands in an empty square,
then the next step is to make a roll to see if he manages
to land on his feet (see Landing below)."

It's clear from this that you only make a landing roll if the player is:

a) thrown, and
b) lands in an empty square.

But a player who is fumbles is not thrown, but instead "falls over in their starting square". Not: "lands in their starting square". "falls over in".

Again, let's refer to page 8, under "Turnovers", point #2:

"2. A player on the moving team is knocked down or falls over"

So, in summary:

Page 23: a player being thrown who is fumbled "falls over"
Page 8: a turn over is caused if a player from the moving "falls over"

There is a specific exclusion to this rule on page 23 for players who fail their LANDING roll. There is no such exclusion for a failed throwing roll.

C'mon, people -- there's no need to fabricate loopholes where there are none.

[Sushé Wakka]

Sorry, I just felt in the mood to argue tonight. Guess I need some sleep

[Hox-ii]

I apologize - I was not trying to fabricate a loophole whatsoever. I was just trying to defend how my league has always ruled it.

Silly me to be confused by the wording in the LRB.

[Sceadeau]

However, the ruling in Throw Team Mate states that a player who fails its landing roll (and so, ends prone) does NOT cause a turnover, unless it is holding the ball. You could assume that a fumbled teammate is an automatically failed landing roll and so it doesn't cause a turnover, unless the almost thrown guy was holding the ball. I know this is a rather, erm, "weak" argument, but it may lead to confusion.

You seem to be looking for the slimmest of possibilities to overrule what's clearly stated in the rules. Another quote from the rules, page 23, under Throwing Team-Mates:

"If the throw is fumbled then the player being thrown falls over in their starting square.

As long as the thrown player lands in an empty square,
then the next step is to make a roll to see if he manages
to land on his feet (see Landing below)."

It's clear from this that you only make a landing roll if the player is:

a) thrown, and
b) lands in an empty square.

But a player who is fumbles is not thrown, but instead "falls over in their starting square". Not: "lands in their starting square". "falls over in".

Again, let's refer to page 8, under "Turnovers", point #2:

"2. A player on the moving team is knocked down or falls over"

So, in summary:

Page 23: a player being thrown who is fumbled "falls over"
Page 8: a turn over is caused if a player from the moving "falls over"

There is a specific exclusion to this rule on page 23 for players who fail their LANDING roll. There is no such exclusion for a failed throwing roll.

C'mon, people -- there's no need to fabricate loopholes where there are none.

Milo,

Thanks. This was the kind of answer I was looking for. I had already deduced this as to be the case by following a strict interpretation of the LRB, but wanted someone to either confirm or deny, using the LRB to do so.

Now...if you can only answer the "What exactly is a COMP" question i started here...you'd be my hero.

Heh.

Sceadeau

[Count Zappa]

I'd say a fumbled TTM is a turnover only if the guy being thrown was carrying the ball.

[Sushé Wakka]

I'd say a fumbled TTM is a turnover only if the guy being thrown was carrying the ball.

Here we go again! ;P

[Tamper Magnitude]

I'd say a fumbled TTM is a turnover only if the guy being thrown was carrying the ball.

Did you not bother to read the thread?


Page 8 of the LRB if your interested, part of the game basics