Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[Maverick]

I think you missed the point because this stems from the previous post where I said that the combo is so powerful - it now makes Big guys redundant in such games and you are better off firing them because they are even more likely to get killed than a lineman. Because linemen can get block and fend if they want a big guy needs doubles for this. So generally the big guy will have no protection against the killer teams. So you are better off firing them when you play them so you can get a wizard or a star player etc.... which is ridiculous. Darkson said well thats an intentional part of the game design. Which is absurd. Make a skill so powerful you need to fire your big guys? Yeah great design

Also I still havent seen any solid arguement against this -

So a star blitzer - who comes with block generally - should also be fired as he is likely to get killed ? -(see your post about half way down)
and The TV to get a str5 CW with Block, Claw, Mb, PO I would suggest the oppo either has a big guy with block or will thank the team for removing him after he hasnt rolled doubles

[Carnis]

Thats simply not true, I understand why people might keep them around (to deflect attention from their other players etc..) but IMO you are better off without one if you are facing a team with 4 St4, MB, PO, Claw players. Because there is almost no chance that he will last the game and a wizard would be more useful than one of your players for winning that game a lot of the time and to me that balance seems a little off.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=playe ... id=7887120

Have to say I find petri a very useful player even at 230k to have around when facing spam-claws. He can sometimes guardlock his opponents and hit them back, othertimes he can tank them for a few turns, and other times he can get pow'd, stop the push stealing actions from up to 2-3 players per turn, sometimes again there's nothing to be done when he can lie prone and usually not get fouled due to thick skull. He will one day die but at 44% block of going down it will be a long time coming, add thick skull & reg and he is really a pain in the clawplayer's backside.

[Thadrin]

Let me just get one thing clear...all these monstrosities with clapomb...they don't have block or dodgr...does aggressively decking them suddenly not work?

Not sure how people are making armies of these guys either. none of the players who can get this combo develop that fast. I'm having enough hassle even getting first skills on my Nurgle team vs the Cyanide AI, let alone 3.

But I'm not the type of muppet who thinks that sory of team is any sort of fun, seeing as it's zero fun to play against. Alsp, this is clearly only a problem in FUMBBL and Cyanide...and thetefote irrelevant.

[RandomOracle]

Let me just get one thing clear...all these monstrosities with clapomb...they don't have block or dodgr...does aggressively decking them suddenly not work?

I build mine with block. Anyway, you try to protect the killers of course, and when they do their killing, they often end up on the floor after piling on, protected by their standing team mates. There's no way to hit them back there, and you're unlikely to get a good foul in. I typically use beastman fodder to screen my best players and try to force my opponent to hit them instead.

Not sure how people are making armies of these guys either. none of the players who can get this combo develop that fast. I'm having enough hassle even getting first skills on my Nurgle team vs the Cyanide AI, let alone 3.

Chaos players skill up fast enough. I once skilled up a new chaos warrior to 16 SPPs in two games without a MVP, which is surprisingly easy when the opposing team is in the casualty box. Besides, once you do get the combo, other skills come very fast as you can easily average two casualties per game by using the killer as your main blitzer.

But I'm not the type of muppet who thinks that sory of team is any sort of fun, seeing as it's zero fun to play against. Alsp, this is clearly only a problem in FUMBBL and Cyanide...and thetefote irrelevant.

Although I don't know what "sory of team" means, it seems to me that you're the one with an issue here. Claw/MB/PO is the best killer combo in the game and helps a lot in winning games. Do you expect your opponents not to take the combo because you don't have fun when playing against it? Do you also expect your opponents not to foul and and not to stall because you say so?

[Thadrin]

Chaos players skill up fast enough. I once skilled up a new chaos warrior to 16 SPPs in two games without a MVP, which is surprisingly easy when the opposing team is in the casualty box. Besides, once you do get the combo, other skills come very fast as you can easily average two casualties per game by using the killer as your main blitzer.

In YOUR experience they do. Not mine.
Admitttedly, that's not so easy with the Nurgle (I'm assuming that that CW got 4 TDs and 2 cas...TDs with a MA4 AG2 guy are les common). My one Chaos team I was using Beastmen as Ball Carriers.
And in fairness - I don't know you from Jack, but from reading this thread it sounds like you're pretty useful with this team and therefore the exception rather than the rule.

But I'm not the type of muppet who thinks that sory of team is any sort of fun, seeing as it's zero fun to play against. Alsp, this is clearly only a problem in FUMBBL and Cyanide...and thetefote irrelevant.

Although I don't know what "sory of team" means, it seems to me that you're the one with an issue here. Claw/MB/PO is the best killer combo in the game and helps a lot in winning games. Do you expect your opponents not to take the combo because you don't have fun when playing against it? Do you also expect your opponents not to foul and and not to stall because you say so?

"Sory" should be "sort". This comes of typing on my phone.
I'm fine with taking one or two Claw/MB/PO players...especially as - assuming you've gone for Block first - that's a four skill player, and they're not an every day occurence in Tabletop leagues. Any more than that and the liklihood increases that you're the sort of idiot who thinks winning is the most important thing in playing a game of Blood Bowl, and the fact that your opponent would rather be gouging his eyes out with a spoon is not something that you should be concerned about.
Chaos Warriors can do so much other stuff...why be boring?

People like that are the reason I only play online against people I actually know. If your idea of fun is wiping out your opponent's team rather than winning by outplaying them then there's a very good chance you're trying to compensate for something.

This is a game. If there aren't two people having fun, then you've both lost.

And, FWIW, I think fouling should be used tactically rather than seen as something to be done every turn, and that stalling comes under the same category as building Clambpo players....it's acceptable in moderation, just don't be an (expletive).

[RandomOracle]

In YOUR experience they do. Not mine.
Admitttedly, that's not so easy with the Nurgle (I'm assuming that that CW got 4 TDs and 2 cas...TDs with a MA4 AG2 guy are les common). My one Chaos team I was using Beastmen as Ball Carriers.

5 TDs and a completion. Yes, I use beastmen as ball carriers but I routinely hand off to chaos warriors when I have a reasonably safe situation, which happens quite often when I outbash my opponent. As result, my second highest scorer is a chaos warrior with 14 touchdowns.

I'm fine with taking one or two Claw/MB/PO players...especially as - assuming you've gone for Block first - that's a four skill player, and they're not an every day occurence in Tabletop leagues. Any more than that and the liklihood increases that you're the sort of idiot who thinks winning is the most important thing in playing a game of Blood Bowl, and the fact that your opponent would rather be gouging his eyes out with a spoon is not something that you should be concerned about.
Chaos Warriors can do so much other stuff...why be boring?

Interesting that you're equating taking many claw/mb/PO players with winning. Also interesting that you're so worried with what your opponents think. Should you intentionally build a worse team so that your opponents have a better chance of winning? Perhaps elves shouldn't be allowed to take more than three times blodge anymore?

People like that are the reason I only play online against people I actually know. If your idea of fun is wiping out your opponent's team rather than winning by outplaying them then there's a very good chance you're trying to compensate for something.

This is a game. If there aren't two people having fun, then you've both lost.

And, FWIW, I think fouling should be used tactically rather than seen as something to be done every turn, and that stalling comes under the same category as building Clambpo players....it's acceptable in moderation, just don't be an (expletive).

Why is winning the game by outbashing your opponent not outplaying them? Why can't you do outplay your opponent if you do lose the bashing war? Why is this not enjoyable to you? I can usually have fun whether I win or lose and whether I outbash my opponent or get outbashed. If someone manages to stall against me, it means they've outplayed me or gotten lucky enough that they deserve to win.

It seems to me that you think you get to decide how the game should be played. You can only take this many claw/PO/MB players, you can only foul this often, you can only stall for this many turns, etc... I'm sorry, but I go by the rulebook. Everything within the rule book is fair game to me, be it fouling every turn, taking 11 claw/MB/PO players or stalling against two players. There are things I wouldn't do, but I don't expect anything from my opponent's play style, nor is my having fun dependent on it. In the end, you are only responsible for you own fun; you should not be expected to change your play to suit whims of your opponent.

[inkpwn]

This is starting to sound like a 40k forum.....

[Thadrin]

Whatever game you play, whatever army, team or gang: spam builds are boring.

I absolutely feel that you have a responsibility to your opponent. Being as selfish as you advocate would simply mean I would hope never to play against you again. Werre I commish of a league where I encountered someone played in that manner I'd invite you to find a new league.

Luckily, there are plenty of ways to build a winning team. Especially with Chaos. I wouldn't build a worsr team. Just an interesting one.

All of these arguments apply equally to OTS Skaven,all Blodge elves, all Guard dwarf and the other "omg why is this allowed its so broken!" teams that people are always moaning about.

However. as I could care less about the online meta, I'll leave you to powergame as you want.

[Darkson]

However. as I could care less about the online meta, I'll leave you to powergame as you want.

+1

When online starts playing the game as intended (and that means ALL the rules, not just the ones that are easy to implement), then I might give a damn. Until then, TT players (as a large majority) say there's no issue, which is my experience, so that's all gravy.

[RandomOracle]

I absolutely feel that you have a responsibility to your opponent. Being as selfish as you advocate would simply mean I would hope never to play against you again. Werre I commish of a league where I encountered someone played in that manner I'd invite you to find a new league.

I'd say being selfish is expecting your opponent to play the way you want to. Anything within the rules should be fair game, so if my opponent wants to stall, or foul me in turn 16, I won't mind. That doesn't necessarily mean I would do the same thing, just that I won't try to dictate how my opponent should play the game. Of course, a commish can implement any house rules he wants, so he would be well within his rights to ban people from playing the game in ways he would not approve of. If a commish wants to set up an elfbowl league where mighty blow are dirty player are banned and finds enough coaches interested in such a league, more power to him.

That said, I do think a good coach should try to make the game enjoyable by chatting with his opponent, not complaining unduly about his dice and maybe offering advice if the situation warrants it.

[daloonieshaman]

+1
also give him a print out of your turn. If he can't read screw him and enjoy it.

[inkpwn]

If he can't read screw him and enjoy it.

[voyagers_uk]

I'd say this thread has run its course...

[DoubleSkulls]

You should see the 350+ page monster on Cyanide... plenty more of people failing to agree to disagree.

[voyagers_uk]

surely we are more civilised and/or mature here...