Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[Thadrin]

In Cupcake's defence (and I can't believe I'm doing this )

I cant believe you said that. Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.

Has someone been listening to Taylor Swift?

[lunchmoney]

In Cupcake's defence (and I can't believe I'm doing this )

I cant believe you said that. Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.

Has someone been listening to Taylor Swift?

Who?

[Carnis]

However. as I could care less about the online meta, I'll leave you to powergame as you want.

+1

When online starts playing the game as intended (and that means ALL the rules, not just the ones that are easy to implement), then I might give a damn. Until then, TT players (as a large majority) say there's no issue, which is my experience, so that's all gravy.

So, cards then? Or what do you think fumbbl is lacking? Wizards will be added in the update after the next one (lacking graphics atm, not implementation), it's not long coming that ALL the rules (the three missing skills) (but not cards) are added.

I expect wizards to get banned in some tournaments eventually, if they prove out to be as brutal as I expect them to be in fumbbl's knockout tournaments of 100+ coaches.

[Darkson]

Or what do you think fumbbl is lacking? Wizards will be added in the update after the next one (lacking graphics atm, not implementation), it's not long coming that ALL the rules (the three missing skills) (but not cards) are added.

And the stuff it's added (as has Cyanide) in the artificial TV difference limit.

As was told (repeatedly to Cupcake, for all the good it did), if the rules don't work in an environment they weren't designed for, i's not the rules that are at fault.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

Or what do you think fumbbl is lacking? Wizards will be added in the update after the next one (lacking graphics atm, not implementation), it's not long coming that ALL the rules (the three missing skills) (but not cards) are added.

And the stuff it's added (as has Cyanide) in the artificial TV difference limit.

As was told (repeatedly to Cupcake, for all the good it did), if the rules don't work in an environment they weren't designed for, i's not the rules that are at fault.

Do you really think a team outside of 15% tv would stand a better chance vs a killer team??

[GalakStarscraper]

Or what do you think fumbbl is lacking? Wizards will be added in the update after the next one (lacking graphics atm, not implementation), it's not long coming that ALL the rules (the three missing skills) (but not cards) are added.

And the stuff it's added (as has Cyanide) in the artificial TV difference limit.

As was told (repeatedly to Cupcake, for all the good it did), if the rules don't work in an environment they weren't designed for, i's not the rules that are at fault.

Do you really think a team outside of 15% tv would stand a better chance vs a killer team??

Yes ... yes I do

[dode74]

Do you really think a team outside of 15% tv would stand a better chance vs a killer team??

Cyanide game a week or so ago, OCC div 2B, RayXXX's 2190TV Orc team (reputation for fouling, piling on and generally maiming the opponent) vs my 1600TV Dark Elf team. Took Morg and a wizard. Score was 4-0 to me and he had 4 players sent off and I have none MNG or worse. The difference was Morg - he tied up so many players that the rest of my team was able to run rings.

So yes, inducements do work.

[RandomOracle]

Yes ... yes I do

And I think this is just silly. Inducements already come into play at high TVs, but somehow giving an even bigger advantage to the overdog is what's truly going to cause them trouble? Words fail me...

[Carnis]

Do you really think a team outside of 15% tv would stand a better chance vs a killer team??

Cyanide game a week or so ago, OCC div 2B, RayXXX's 2190TV Orc team (reputation for fouling, piling on and generally maiming the opponent) vs my 1600TV Dark Elf team. Took Morg and a wizard. Score was 4-0 to me and he had 4 players sent off and I have none MNG or worse. The difference was Morg - he tied up so many players that the rest of my team was able to run rings.

So yes, inducements do work.

If we are publishing individual cases now, here's my fumbbl counteroffer (see, majors allow limitless inducements)! Did they really stand a chance?

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3136307

[Deathwing]

I am soooo tempted to lock out of pure frustration.....however..

Here's where I think we are:

There is an apparent issue with the vanilla rules that were designed for tabletop in specific online environments.
Those rules are categorically not going to change anytime soon.
Those specific online environments are either unable or unwilling to house rule to suit address that issue.
People playing in those environments are frustrated because of all of the above.

House rules have always been encouraged (and expected) throughout the history of Bowl Blood.

"In a league, the Commissioner's word is LAW. He is allowed to change or modify any of the Blood Bowl Rules as he sees fit, including any of the league rules that follow... [snip]... (my emphasis).. If you don't like the way a commissioner runs his league, you have two choices, put up with it or leave the league. "

In short, if Christer (as the effective FUMBBL Commissioner) chooses to apply vanilla "tabletop" rules in a league environment that was never designed for those rules, then you have the same two choices. Likewise Cyanide. Deal with it or stop playing BB and play poker, Starcraft II or something else online.

The issue (as I see it) are not the rules per se, but the inability or unwillingness to adapt rules designed for tabletop play to suit specific online environments.

[GalakStarscraper]

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3136307

Yeah he did IMO ... he took really lousy inducement choices.

Tom

[garion]

Galak is right there mind. Why on earth would you take those inducements? Gnashrak is good but has no block and ZZharg is just plain rubbish, he has no block, gets sent off after one drive, ST4 is okay and tackle is an okay skill but no something they are lacking in - but really, no block on a chaos dwarf against a far higher TV CD team that is likely to have some very hard hitters. Not a good choice.

He could have got a lot more bang for his buck. The inducement system does work well. I have played many games that can attest to this, here is a perfect example from fumbbl - http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=3072585
and I was unlucky not to win that one as my opponent had to make a bunch of tricky rolls in order to score in the last turn.

However I do not think that any amount of inducments is going to make that much difference against the killer teams in question, because all the star players are reduced to AV7 like everyone else. The apoth is completely unreliable unless you plan on only using it to save BH players (which i pretty much all i use him for now). Babes are useful for getting players back after a drive but they dont solve the problem of your team being wiped from the field. The only one that will make a big difference is the wizard - which if used by a finesse team (elves, Skaven etc...) could win the game for them; although they will still hemorage casulties because of how powerful the combo is.

The think that still confuses me about all of this is that Galak said -

What is kiling me is the comments suggesting that Mighty Blow affecting AV 7 is "too powerful". Which I'm seeing over and over and over. Its just not ... I say that with all confidence.

So what gets me is I listened ... I digested ... I've suggested that for the specific house ruled environment that matched up with a suggestion that another former BBRC member made with the same information.

What gets me is we tried to listen ... but the comments that are still coming suggest that it won't be good enough until no one with AV 9 ever dies.

Tom

I think you have taken what people have said too far. No one is saying Av9 shoudlnt be allowed to die etc....

Now I have said the MB claw stack doesnt bother me and that it is just the stack with PO that does and you have suggested a fix for that which is great

However to argue the case for the people that do believe that MB Claw stack alone is too great - because they have a very strong arguement-

1) Claw stacking with Mighty Blow. If this was true Skaven, Pro and Wood Elves would be too difficult to play. So the fact that your AV 9 player can now die ... get over it and move one ... all the AV 7 races got over this a long time ago.

You say that if MB on AV7 was too powerful Skaven, Pro and Wood Elves would be too difficult to play. First of I find that very worrying that you would use them as examples to back up why av7 on Orcs or Dwarves isnt making them too weak. The three races you mentioned all have Ag4 players the elf teams throughout the team and the Skaven on 4 players, all those players have access to blodge (which is in its self a great defence, Orcs and Dwarves do not except on doubles). So the Ag4 and blodge makes those players incredibly hard to pin down and if the elves want to they can limit the bashy teams to only having one blitz a turn all game, which significantly reduces the chances of causing serious damage. This is something Orcs and Dwarves simply cannot do. Dwarves especially have a completely one dimensional game plan and have little in the way of options for changing tactics mid game. They do still have some coverage with thick skull though which is quite useful against the killer teams.

Also the 3 teams above also have very very fast players so they can run away and out manouver bashy teams. The Pro Elves are the best passing team in the game along with High Elves, the wood elves have this option too and have the best player in the game in their roster (WD). Skaven have GR also one of the best players in the game who can do anything and everything while the rest of your team get beat up. So to say that av7 isnt a problem for those races so why should it be for the normally Av9 teams is a bit too simple a view to take because those av9 teams are very limited in their approach to the game.

No one is saying they dont want Av9 players to die but you seem to be suggesting that Claw on its own for the Av roll or Claw with MB wouldnt be enough to hurt av9. It certainly would, as LRB4 rules showed. The best comparison for this would probably be to compare Orc or Dwarves facing the killer teams at a high Tv in CRP/LRB6 to when LRB4 killer teams played against LRB4 Norse at a high TR. That is the sort of difference in qualiy of the teams at a high level. As you know Norse had little to no chance at that level even though PO was Av only then (hence the great upgrade to Norse). They just couldnt compete with the MB bashy teams had en-masse back then and that is essentially what Orcs and Dwarves have been reduced too now in these match ups which simply cannot be disputed.

The other big problem with the MB Claw stack is how redundant it makes all big guys at a high TV. Small leagues like the one I play in do not face this problem because at most we have 14 games a season then restart. But Leagues that continue from season to season with the same teams and rosters will find that Big Guys against the Claw-Mb-PO stack are almost worthless. They take a huge chunk of TV and they do not usually have block coverage. So a Norse lineman is better equiped to deal with killer players than a Big Guy. This is certainly something I feel does need to be addressed. Because in these lengthy leagues you are strangely better off firing your big guy for the nasty games and getting a Wizard or what ever other Inducement you want.

However the MB Claw stack is not something I have a problem with but as you can see I can certainly see why people do believe that is a problem. (Although I personally do think something needs to be done there to protect big guys a little because they are too weak against said teams now)

The problem I have said all along is the Stack with PO, and the fix you suggested is a really good start and Im sure I'm not the only one that really appreciates you actually taking to time to think about it and I would personally love to see that play tested to see how much of a difference that would make.

[dode74]

Do you really think a team outside of 15% tv would stand a better chance vs a killer team??

Cyanide game a week or so ago, OCC div 2B, RayXXX's 2190TV Orc team (reputation for fouling, piling on and generally maiming the opponent) vs my 1600TV Dark Elf team. Took Morg and a wizard. Score was 4-0 to me and he had 4 players sent off and I have none MNG or worse. The difference was Morg - he tied up so many players that the rest of my team was able to run rings.

So yes, inducements do work.

If we are publishing individual cases now, here's my fumbbl counteroffer (see, majors allow limitless inducements)! Did they really stand a chance?

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3136307

You miss the point - Jimmy asked if a team outside 15% of TV would stand a better chance vs a killer team. The answer is "yes" imo, and I gave an example where they not only had a chance but dished out a thrashing.
Of course there will be a majority of cases where the low TV team lose, sometimes by a lot, but that is what TV advantage gives - the underdog should have a 30% chance of winning. What having a lower TV and an efficient team does though is allow you to focus inducements where they will do the most damage. Inducements are expensive but, used well, can make more of a difference in a match than unused skills which level up the TV.
With the example you gave, I think I would have chosen different inducements for a start. A wizard, apoth and a babe instead of Grashnak are my initial thoughts (a weakness with FUMBBL not having wizards I think), but I'm not massively experienced with CDs. That's a different thread entirely though. Your question was whether they stood a chance, and my answer is, in this case (which I think you'll agree is an extreme given the number of journeymen) no - one of the extreme end of the 70%.

[Carnis]

Galak is right there mind. Why on earth would you take those inducements? Gnashrak is good but has no block and ZZharg is just plain rubbish, he has no block, gets sent off after one drive, ST4 is okay and tackle is an okay skill but no something they are lacking in - but really, no block on a chaos dwarf against a far higher TV CD team that is likely to have some very hard hitters. Not a good choice.

Just a minor correction, no Zharg in that game ;]], it's hthark! Also he was limited by the no-wizard available, other than that he didnt really stand a chance imo, not even a small one..

[Carnis]

Garion, I think you are starting to repeat yourself. IMO, the problem of mbclawpo is that there are a few teams that have NO way to cover for it, namely lizardmen who become hopeless at higher TV..