Was: Claw Poll - Now: Dice vs RNG

[Mirascael]

Which means the environment is at fault not the rules.

That would essentially mean that rules by default can't be broken for any games as you can always houserule anything. I mean, seriously, hat's not only an awkward argument, that's basically no argument at all (like Ian's "One skill combo has to be the best", as if you'd design a game and try to unbalance on aspect of a game deliberately).

[Mirascael]

This started being debated in the pub on Saturday night after the ARBBL - thankfully Match of the Day came on the big screen, which was much more interesting.

Even though the issue has eventually reached the ARBBL tabletop league (if I have interpreted your words correctly, that is):

How your league has solved the allegedly non-existent issue is exemplary: Simply have no one play chaos and nurgle, problem (almost) solved

[Darkson]

For the enviroment the game was designed for, the combo works fine.
If it doesn't work for Cyanide or FUMBBL, then they're [as in the enviroment the games are set in] the problem.

If you don't like it, that's tough, because the game wasn't designed for Cyanide or FUMBBL, it was designed for tabletop, and there it works.


And on another point, why should GW care whether the rules screw FUMBBL? It's not like they make any money from it*?



* Yes, I know coaches from FUMBBL play TT, buy models, paints, boxsets etc. etc. etc., but this is GW we're talking about - if it's not direct from them, it obviously doesn't exist.

[Darkson]

This started being debated in the pub on Saturday night after the ARBBL - thankfully Match of the Day came on the big screen, which was much more interesting.

Even though the issue has eventually reached the ARBBL tabletop league (if I have interpreted your words correctly, that is):

How your league has solved the allegedly non-existent issue is exemplary: Simply have no one play chaos and nurgle, problem (almost) solved

Completely wrong.

This was being debated in the pub after the Sat night of the tourney, Deathwing on one "side", Purplegoo and SillySod on the "other", me watching MotD (cos it was boring) - I'm not sure where Joe and Blitzwing were "sitting" on the debate.

As for the ARBBL tabletop league, we've never had a problem with it, either in the straight LRB5/6 league we ran, nor in the Chaos League we played where we added a version of the old RSC back in.

[Mirascael]

For the enviroment the game was designed for, the combo works fine.
If it doesn't work for Cyanide or FUMBBL, then they're [as in the enviroment the games are set in] the problem.

If you don't like it, that's tough, because the game wasn't designed for Cyanide or FUMBBL, it was designed for tabletop, and there it works.


And on another point, why should GW care whether the rules screw FUMBBL? It's not like they make any money from it*?



* Yes, I know coaches from FUMBBL play TT, buy models, paints, boxsets etc. etc. etc., but this is GW we're talking about - if it's not direct from them, it obviously doesn't exist.

Doesn't matter whether it's FUMBBL, Cyanide or tabletop, as long as the league is truly perpetual, Clawpomb is bound to totally dominate each of these environments, eventually. For obvious reasons, it hasn't been a coincidence that online-leagues would unveil this problem prior to tabletop environments.

[Darkson]

And yet, as you've been told before, truly perpetual leagues, where there is a reason for winning, it doesn't.

Just because that doesn't fit your conclusions, doesn't mean you can just dismiss it.

[Corvidius]

The argument of boring builds is a funny one for me, I've an Amazon team full of Blodgers, Blitzers with Guard/Tackle/Mighty Blow, Catchers with Block, Diving Tackle and Tackle, Throwers with Block/Sure Hands/Tackle. I turned down Stat increases until these basics were met and had a versatile team that I felt could compete happily at TV 200 which is where they and the other teams in their league were after 4 seasons of 5 games with cups in between. While I admit that it's not an adventurous build, saying a build is boring is silly. You pick the selection that works. Elves without Block will take it, elves without dodge will take it, elves with high move will probably take leap and or strip ball. It's not boring, it's sensible.

The much maligned Claw/Mighty Blow/Piling On Combo is a perfectly valid tactic for winning games just as stalling and cages and 1 turn touchdowns are. Gutter Runner with Sure Feet, Sprint, Sidestep is horrible. Couple it with Block and or Big Hand and it'll ruin your opponents day with no chance of counter. Throw Team Mate is much harder but still frustrating as hell.

Sure, killing the opposition has longer term effects but playing a different style of game to what your opponent expects will make a huge difference. Orcs have a legitimate passing play, Elves switch play like pros as do skaven, Dwarves get less options but they still have block and strength access so guard will be common and they can still move the ball a fair distance in 2 turns. Chaos are versatile but really need to be experienced to compete in any style. 3 skills on a player is still massive and will still die every so often.

Killing people IS part of what Blood Bowl is about. While I think Piling On is annoying and deadly so is Guard and so is Diving Tackle. I think Diving Tackle is an awesome skill, coupled with Sidestep and Blodge well that's definitely overpowered, right?

[Smeborg]

Doesn't matter whether it's FUMBBL, Cyanide or tabletop, as long as the league is truly perpetual, Clawpomb is bound to totally dominate each of these environments, eventually. For obvious reasons, it hasn't been a coincidence that online-leagues would unveil this problem prior to tabletop environments.

I don't believe that is necessarily the case, as the Clawpomb teams are the most vulnerable to other Clawpomb teams (they lack Dodge, Fend etc.), thus the Clawpomb teams will suffer M.A.D. in any "truly perpetual" environment.

[Corvidius]

Doesn't matter whether it's FUMBBL, Cyanide or tabletop, as long as the league is truly perpetual, Clawpomb is bound to totally dominate each of these environments, eventually. For obvious reasons, it hasn't been a coincidence that online-leagues would unveil this problem prior to tabletop environments.

I don't believe that is necessarily the case, as the Clawpomb teams are the most vulnerable to other Clawpomb teams (they lack Dodge, Fend etc.), thus the Clawpomb teams will suffer M.A.D. in any "truly perpetual" environment.

+1 to that

[Piousman]

I don't believe that is necessarily the case, as the Clawpomb teams are the most vulnerable to other Clawpomb teams (they lack Dodge, Fend etc.), thus the Clawpomb teams will suffer M.A.D. in any "truly perpetual" environment.

I was about to say that. Sure, an S4 Clawpomb player is fearsome, but it is also 3 skills, 4 with Block. One Chainsaw attack and gang foul wastes tens of games worth of skill-ups. In any sort of league where winning is important (and were you don't go ahead and play 50 games just to skill up another Claw Warrior) that is a significant step-back, hence it is not a problem.

If someone is willing to put in the time to do it over and over again, power to them!

- Piousman

[Carnis]

I don't believe that is necessarily the case, as the Clawpomb teams are the most vulnerable to other Clawpomb teams (they lack Dodge, Fend etc.), thus the Clawpomb teams will suffer M.A.D. in any "truly perpetual" environment.

I was about to say that. Sure, an S4 Clawpomb player is fearsome, but it is also 3 skills, 4 with Block. One Chainsaw attack and gang foul wastes tens of games worth of skill-ups. In any sort of league where winning is important (and were you don't go ahead and play 50 games just to skill up another Claw Warrior) that is a significant step-back, hence it is not a problem.

If someone is willing to put in the time to do it over and over again, power to them!

- Piousman

If you can get away with it, yes, a pro player wielding the clawmbpo will easily get rid of both types rather than exposing himself.. Anyway it doesnt hold water to claim SPPs are wasted by said combo, for one, it makes building legends easy when up to 30% of your safe blocks with a knockdown (where you can safely pile on and get 3die on the block) are casualties.. that 176 doesnt sound all that high anymore.

[Woolfe]

Perhaps, because of the perceived issues related to the players getting to a TV and staying in it, it means you aren't facing that many good other race players.

Perhaps at the level you are at, you are only facing other players who are good at CLMBPO. Perhaps if you tested this theory in a Good TT league rather than an online league you might not find it so "easy".

I could be wrong, you could generally be an allround BRILLIANT player who will play well no matter what league you are in TT or OL, in which case I put it to you the problem isn't the CLMBPO but your own skill.

But I doubt it. I think you are in different environment to what I play in (TT). Changing that environment could make a world of difference.
Perhaps even changing the team type. Why don't you try and prove your skill by taking a team like... Skaven... building them up long term, and then trying to take on the CLMBPO teams and beat them, you could even get a CLMBPO blitzer and use him for surgical strikes to take out the opponents CLMBPO players.

If this is upsetting you so much that you feel you have to raise this, and keep the thread going for 17 pages on the this forum alone, then maybe YOU need to make the change. Most of the rest of us are happy with it the way it is.

Woolfe

[Mossman]

Listen. This is very easy. In LRB4 Claw+RSC was the most broken overpowered skill combination of the entire game. Luckily though, two doubles was required to get it which made the whole thing somewhat acceptable.

So how good was it? In LRB4 the chance of getting a cas with Claw & RSC against AV9 was 17,36%.

In LRB6 that broken skill combination was removed. But the strange thing is that instead an even more powerful skill combination was created! In LRB6 the chance of getting a cas against AV9 with Claw, Pilling On and MB is as much as 26.77% which is INSANE!!!!! Its plain sick how broken and overpowered that is. And it doesnt even require doubles!!!

The problem with Claw+PillingOn+MB (ClawPOMB) is that it ruins the entire game. It basically make every other tactic in the game useless, because getting as many players with ClawPOMB as possible will always be better.

Think of LRB4 but with some slight changes to the rules; instead of only Chaos and Skaven having access to Claw och RSC on doubles, every team would have access to it on ordinary rolls. What do you think would happen? Yes, the entire game would be reduced to who can pick the most Claw and RSC on his players and throw the luckiest armor and injury-rolls, which would be extremly boring. This is exactly what has happend to LRB6 but with ClawPOMB instead. And that is an ENORMOUS insult to the strategical depth of this game!

This MUST be fixed. My suggestion is to simply rollback Pilling On to how it worked under LRB4; only let you re-roll armor rolls. This would solve the problem.

[GalakStarscraper]

Ian and I already put forward a real simple item that cuts down on the combo quite a bit.

If you use Piling On ... you cannot use any other modifying skills on the re-roll. IE no Claw and no Mighty Blow effects on the re-roll be it armour or injury.

Not only does this cut back on the % ... it also makes the risk of using it on the AV more much more for going Prone for no result. Old system ... vs AV 8 you PoN needing a 7 to break armour with this change you'd need a 9. For AV 9 it goes from needing a 7 to break armour on the re-roll to needing a 10. That's a large move to the risk factor of going prone and not breaking AV.

Tom

[daloonieshaman]

Tom,
you contradict yourself here.
You indicate that you cannot use any modifying skills on the re-roll
It does not say that in the entry for Piling-on
It does not say that is CRP
It does not say that in Q&A (unless you are hiding a new one from us)

Flat out according to the rules of the game you get to use the modifiers for that re-roll
aka
Passing, dodging ect